What is the combat use of Universal Carriers?

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

Greetings,

I have been playing with the British (a very interesting TO&E by the way) however I have found very little combat use for Universal Carriers. They're great for towing 6pdr AT guns and shuttling FO's around, but you can't use them as APC's because the passengers are not armour protected. You could use them for recon, but the Humber is faster, has more armour and is cheaper. So, any ideas?

thanks in anticipation

[Covenant]

Well sir, in my meager opinion the "combat use" for the afore mentioned vehicle is: Transport , it is after all just a truck ..they come in handy when you need to move heavy equipment ie anti-tank guns, mortars, heavy machine gun teams, anti-tank teams etc. Troops carrying mortars, heavy machine guns, anti-tank weapons , have a very slow rate of movement and tire very quickly it is best to transport these units in your trucks .

[boyrecon]

we (the Brits) entered wwII still not quite sure it wasn't wwI. We spent the '20's and '30's fighting colonial wars in Iraq and elsewhere, which only justified our faith in C19th combat tactics. By 1944 we had finally realised the age of cavalry was over. However, we never got (at least during wwII) over the infantry/cavalry thing. Carriers are best employed as mobile infantry. They obviously cannot stand up to any significant AT capability.

Use them as mobile MG teams/taxis for spotters and f/throwers. Against infantry they're handy; against anything else forget it. The British army during wwII is an Infantry army. Our tanks are mediocre at at best. Personally I think all British squads

should be rated no lower than

regular, to reflect the professionalism of

he NCO's and the high quality of the training. After all, we were in it from '39, not '41.

[cyrano01]

The tactical use of Universal Carriers is an interesting one. Historically the carrier platoon of a British infantry battalion (1944) had 4 sections each with 3 carriers. Each carrier with 4 soldiers, 3 with rifle (one of whom was a driver/mechanic) and a Bren Gunner. One of the carriers would also have a PIAT amongst its kit to be picked up by the crew as needed (Source British Army Handbook - Forty).

My understanding, possible misconceived, is that tactically the carrier platoon was expected to fight mounted or dismounted as needed. Essentially this gave the commander a very mobile platoon of 4 sections each section having 3 Bren Guns and 6 Riflemen (or 9 if the Driver/Mechanics dismounted, don't know if this was SOP)plus access to a PIAT if needed, albeit at the expense of one of your guys putting aside his personal weapon.

Now, to a certain extent, you are limited in representing this by the way CM is structured (not a criticism btw, I'm sure it would be a swine to implement). You can't dismount the Brens or represent a 3/4 man dismountable group. There isn't a separate Bren Gun team outside a rifle squad. Consequently, as far as I can see, it is quite hard to use the carrier platoon in some aspects of a historical fashion.

Incidentally the free-standing Bren team would be useful elsewhere too. I think I read an article that suggested that anti-tank troops (towed guns) has Bren teams among their number to provide local defence for their positions.

Finally I should add that I have read accounts of Universal Carriers being pressed into service for all sorts of supply carrying, casualty evacuation and other portage tasks. Whether these were part of battalion carrier platoons or other units I can't say.

------------------

The British Army always fights its battles uphill, in the pouring rain, at the junction of two map-sheets. (Field Marshal W. Slim)

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

Thanks for your comments covenant and boyrecon. I had an idea that their combat use is transport (expecially slow-moving squads). I just wanted to see if anybody had another use. I have a cunning idea for their use in a quick battle, but I'll keep that up my sleeve

take care and have a good Xmas.

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

Thanks for the info cyrano01, I have tried the tactic against the AI. The force consisted of a regular rifle platoon and two universal carriers. I placed the PIAT in one and the command squad in the other and the moved onto an an enemy held objective that was being suppressed by machine gun and direct HE. However, I missed supressing one German squad and this squad killed 1 of the PIAT team and two of the platoon team (both which then dismounted). After that I realised they are not APC's.

Actually I now attach 1 MMG carrier to each rifle platoon I purchase. Lots more ammo and highly maneuverable. Great for supressing MG42 teams and generally annoying Fritz.

[Red]

I've been playing a meeting engagement as the Waffen SS against a PBEM opponent playing as the British. It was a 30 turn quick battle with 1500 points per side and using the 76mm/88mm rule. We were right in the thick of it by turn 15, and imagine my surprise when a Universal carrier comes skirting down my left flank. At the time my armoured resources were engaged in a melee with an m10 and a couple of cromwells. It harrassed my troops in a pesty way: suppressing them but not doing significant damage. I had no AT resources to call upon so I targeted it with an MG42. It disappeared quickly behind trees and popped up again towards my rear. The reason I am telling you this story is that it is the classic case of a distraction: caused little damage but drew assets away from the battle. Save it up until after 50% through the scenario when your opponent is almost fully committed. Use it to harry and probe. You could use armoured cars for this as well but after seeing this guy use it to such good affect I was impressed.

[Gremlin]

German HT's serve the same useful functions: not only can they quickly haul in slow-moving teams to hot spots, but their speed and MG (or larger weapon) allow for very rapid diversions and suppressive fire.

------------------

War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gremlin:

German HT's serve the same useful functions: not only can they quickly haul in slow-moving teams to hot spots, but their speed and MG (or larger weapon) allow for very rapid diversions and suppressive fire.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Gremlin I quite agree, German halftracks are very good in this role. However they are expesnive compared to Universal and MMG carriers. These guys are just so cheap, and are invulnerable to MG42's, unlike the M3 series of Halftracks. They are also very small, so they are extremely difficult to hit with mortars. Of course they can be taken out by Panzerschrecks, but I'm more than happy to swap a carrier for a Panzershreck anyday...

[CATguy]

I heard that old carriers were being sold as scrap surplus in India...

[Simon Fox]

Good info there cyrano and spot on from my reading. It's a pity you can't dismount the Brens and Vickers from the carriers as they would have historically as it restricts your flexibility somewhat. A three man British Bren team would have been a possible compromise since you are right about the local defense for ATk guns too.

Like everyone else I use them mainly for transport as they are great for zipping your PIATs, mortars, FOs or Coy COs around. The only problem with this is the limitations of the engine which mean you can only load 1PIAT team at a time (2guys) though you can load a HQ (4+) or a half squad (5) though I haven't tried the latter. The MMG carriers can easily suppress a German HMG even if the model is wrong

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

I love those MMG Carriers, great to provide support for an Infantry platoon while they are advancing...I just got to remember to button them up

[109 Gustav]

I like the Wasp flamethrowers. Probably my favorite British unit, except maybe the cromwell. Long range, and not as vulnerable to small arms as flamethrower teams.

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

ooh Yeah

the WASP or "marshmallow cooker" as I like to call it is one of six reasons I like to play the British. The other five are:

1. Tanks with 17pdr guns

2. Ram Kangaroos

3. MMG Carriers and the 1912 Vickers MMG

4. 4.2" Mortars

5. 6 Pdr AT Gun

Time for a cup of tea now...

[cyrano01]

Simon

Thanks for the confirmation. Following on from your thoughts; If it is possible to carry a half-section in a Universal Carrier then we could represent the carrier platoon by spreading an infantry platoon across 4 carrier sections and padding out with PIATS. That would give some dismounted capability although it understates small arms and overstates A/T power. Like everyone else, in practise, I tend to use the Universal Carrier as a run around for teams and the MMG carrier as a handy mobile fire support weapon. I have a feeling that real life commanders of MMG platoons might be horrified with using them the way we all do.

------------------

The British Army always fights its battles uphill, in the pouring rain, at the junction of two map-sheets. (Field Marshal W. Slim)

[Private Pike]

I find one use of carriers is to hide the presence of a Wasp or 2. If you have a swarm of carriers moving around I find PBEM oponents tend to ignore them after a while. It's then that you can move the wasp up. After it's first sting, If it survives and can get back into cover, any sight of the other carriers tends to lead to panic reactions, great fun to watch

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Private Pike:

I find one use of carriers is to hide the presence of a Wasp or 2. If you have a swarm of carriers moving around I find PBEM oponents tend to ignore them after a while. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now PP, this is a cunning little trick, especially if you have multiple Wasps. Once bitten twice shy

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyrano01:

The tactical use of Universal Carriers is an interesting one.

My understanding, possible misconceived, is that tactically the carrier platoon was expected to fight mounted or dismounted as needed. Essentially this gave the commander a very mobile platoon of 4 sections each section having 3 Bren Guns and 6 Riflemen (or 9 if the Driver/Mechanics dismounted, don't know if this was SOP)plus access to a PIAT if needed, albeit at the expense of one of your guys putting aside his personal weapon.

Finally I should add that I have read accounts of Universal Carriers being pressed into service for all sorts of supply carrying, casualty evacuation and other portage tasks. Whether these were part of battalion carrier platoons or other units I can't say.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were more than just carrier platoon carriers in the infantry battalions. The mortar platoon had six more to carry the three inch mortars in, and the AT platoon had six as well. Some COs may have had one instead of a jeep or halftrack.

The RSM and CSMs are oftened cited as carrying supplies in them, and evacuating wounded, as you suggest. I don't know if this means they were using the carriers from the carrier platoon, or if they were extra to establishment (sometimes extra vehicles were "acquired" while on campaign), or were actually part of the war establishment (sorry, I mean to say OOB).

I have some photos and info of carriers on one of my websites - see

http://highlanders.freehosting.net/carriers.htm

for a picture of carriers pulling stumps! Not exactly relevant to CM, but they were used for a variety of purposes.