Osmo Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Jääkäri As everybody knows, the word comes from the German word "Jäger", meaning hunter (the Germand word; Finnish word Jääkäri doens't have any additional meaning"). Centuries ago, at the time of line tactics and muskets, jaegers were light infantrymen, who fought as skirmishers. During the WW2 Jaeger units in Finland were fast-moving bicycle troops, which were especially used to pursuit or delay the enemy or in recce duties. This varies though: each battalion of infantry had a separate jaeger platoon, which functioned as a scouts. The Jaeger battalions were somewhat closer to the regular infantry. Sissi can be translated as either ranger or guerilla. I would prefer the first one, because the Finnish sissi troops were regular army forces, not some irregular bunch of civilians. They were more commando-type units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daft Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Sinve we have so many Finns in this thread I might as well ask; is anyone of you working on some more Finnish scenarios? I simply love the Finnish side of CMBB. If I ever find the patience to sit down and actually use the editor I might try doing some scenarios based on my grandfathers experiences with JR4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keke Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Originally posted by Jussi Köhler: Squadleader: Korpraali or Alikersantti Korpraali wasnt a NCO, alikersantti was. Platoonleader: Vänrikki or Luutnantti. Companyleader: Kapteeni Off course there were both higher and lower ranks, ideally korpraali is the second in command for a squad. All was subjective to amount of casualities I think. Hope it helps.Here seems to be some confusion with modern and historical ranks. During WWII Finnish Korpraali was a NCO, platoons were usually lead by vänrikkis of reserve (so called maito-vänrikit) and companies by "professional" vänrikkis or higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmo Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Originally posted by Keke: Here seems to be some confusion with modern and historical ranks. During WWII Finnish Korpraali was a NCO, platoons were usually lead by vänrikkis of reserve (so called maito-vänrikit) and companies by "professional" vänrikkis or higher.[/QB]I'm quite sure that korpraali was not a NCO during the WW2. It might have been a NCO rank at the first years of independece, but I don't think that was the case in the WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmo Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Platoon Leaders were most often Second Lieutenants (vänrikki), sometimes First Lieutenants (luutnantti) but rarely. Company Commanders were supposed to be Captains, but most often he was a First Lieutenant (of reserve). I think that even 2Lts were more common in Company Commander positions as Captains (i'm talking about the whole war; at the start of Winter War there might have been proportionally more Captains serving as Company (Battery) Commanders. Battalion Commanders were usually Captains or Majors, seldom Lieutenant-Colonels. Regiments were commanded by Lieutenant-Colonels or Colonels, Lt-Col being more common. Divisions were commanded by Colonels (1939-1942), but after the attack of 1941 had ended, division commanders started to receive promotions and by June 6, 1944, all of the 15 divisions were commanded by Majo-Generals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keke Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Originally posted by daft: Sinve we have so many Finns in this thread I might as well ask; is anyone of you working on some more Finnish scenarios? I simply love the Finnish side of CMBB. If I ever find the patience to sit down and actually use the editor I might try doing some scenarios based on my grandfathers experiences with JR4.I have started to make an operation called "Road to Portinhoikka", which has 4.5*3.6km map (area between Leitimonjärvi and Portinhoikka). It will model the 5 hour battle which took place there 25.6.1944. It will be the first operation in my (hopefully) forthcoming `Tali-Ihantala series´. Real maps and formations are used, but the basic problem is how I succesfully scale down the number of units involved. Fe in this operation historic amount of Soviet troops (fe. Guard inf rgmnt, 3 tank coys etc.) would mean none less than 19,500pts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keke Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Originally posted by Osmo: I'm quite sure that korpraali was not a NCO during the WW2. It might have been a NCO rank at the first years of independece, but I don't think that was the case in the WW2.It may be that my definiton of NCO is all wrong, but back in those days aliupseerikoulus produced Korpraalis not Alikersanttis (it sounds almost like Latvian with those s-letters ). [ October 11, 2002, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Keke ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 These uber-Finns must be stationed on another part of the front because my Guardsmen wiped the floor with those Finns two nights ago in a 2000pt QB. The poor chaps never even knocked out a single one of my tanks (but then those small Finnish light tanks tend to react badly to SU-100s or IS-2s) and I had very few casualties. I was expecting heat-seeking missiles to emerge out of their backsides and obliterate my force. Hmph!, and they say CMBB is an accurate game/simulator I can only assume they were not real Finns--Perhaps Italians in disguise. [ October 11, 2002, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarker Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Originally posted by Commissar: I can only assume they were not real Finns--Perhaps Italians in disguise.Ah, you got the randomized 'unter-Funns'. Party animals, yes. Fighters, no. [ October 11, 2002, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Snarker ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Originally posted by Snarker: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Commissar: I can only assume they were not real Finns--Perhaps Italians in disguise.Ah, you got the randomized 'unter-Funns'. Party animals, yes. Fighters, no.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 I've gone ahead and added this information to my page; if I've gotten anything wrong, please let me know, and if anyone wants to email me with their real name so that I can credit them with the info, please do, and I will. Have we come to a consensus on whether or not Korpraali was an NCO or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keke Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Originally posted by Commissar: These uber-Finns must be stationed on another part of the front because my Guardsmen wiped the floor with those Finns two nights ago in a 2000pt QB. The poor chaps never even knocked out a single one of my tanks (but then those small Finnish light tanks tend to react badly to SU-100s or IS-2s) and I had very few casualties. I was expecting heat-seeking missiles to emerge out of their backsides and obliterate my force. Hmph!, and they say CMBB is an accurate game/simulator I can only assume they were not real Finns--Perhaps Italians in disguise.So your troops didn´t meet these Überfinns? [ October 11, 2002, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Keke ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daft Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Originally posted by Keke: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daft: Sinve we have so many Finns in this thread I might as well ask; is anyone of you working on some more Finnish scenarios? I simply love the Finnish side of CMBB. If I ever find the patience to sit down and actually use the editor I might try doing some scenarios based on my grandfathers experiences with JR4.I have started to make an operation called "Road to Portinhoikka", which has 4.5*3.6km map (area between Leitimonjärvi and Portinhoikka). It will model the 5 hour battle which took place there 25.6.1944. It will be the first operation in my (hopefully) forthcoming `Tali-Ihantala series´. Real maps and formations are used, but the basic problem is how I succesfully scale down the number of units involved. Fe in this operation historic amount of Soviet troops (fe. Guard inf rgmnt, 3 tank coys etc.) would mean none less than 19,500pts!</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmo Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Originally posted by Keke: It may be that my definiton of NCO is all wrong, but back in those days aliupseerikoulus produced Korpraalis not Alikersanttis I was just reading a book about Winter Warc called "Patterinpäällikkönä Talvisodassa" (something like "Battery Commander in the Winter War") by Vilho Pösö, who was the commander of the First Battery of the Separate Artillery Battalion 4 (Erillinen Patteristo 4) during the Winter War. One appendix lists the names of the men who served in that battery. In the end he mentions "There are 5 officers, 29 NCOs and 130 Lance-Corporals (korpraali) and Gunners (tykkimies) in the name list, altogether 164 names". I noted from the list that from these 29 NCOs two were First Sergeants (=vääpeli; usually translated as Warrant Officer but I find "First Sergeant" better), one was Staff Sergeant (ylikersantti), five were Sergeants (kersantti) and 21 were Corporals (alikersantti). Out of the 130 enlisted men about 25 were Lance-Corporals, of which only three or four served in NCO positions. So at least according to this book, korpaali was not a NCO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmo Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Originally posted by Keke: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Commissar: These uber-Finns must be stationed on another part of the front because my Guardsmen wiped the floor with those Finns two nights ago in a 2000pt QB. The poor chaps never even knocked out a single one of my tanks (but then those small Finnish light tanks tend to react badly to SU-100s or IS-2s) and I had very few casualties. I was expecting heat-seeking missiles to emerge out of their backsides and obliterate my force. Hmph!, and they say CMBB is an accurate game/simulator I can only assume they were not real Finns--Perhaps Italians in disguise.So your troops didn´t meet these Überfinns? </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keke Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Originally posted by Osmo: I noted from the list that from these 29 NCOs two were First Sergeants (=vääpeli; usually translated as Warrant Officer but I find "First Sergeant" better), one was Staff Sergeant (ylikersantti), five were Sergeants (kersantti) and 21 were Corporals (alikersantti). Out of the 130 enlisted men about 25 were Lance-Corporals, of which only three or four served in NCO positions. So at least according to this book, korpaali was not a NCO.So the confusion comes from the fact that Finnish Alikersanttis were Corporals and Finnish Korpraalis were Lance-Corporals (in English)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keke Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Originally posted by Osmo: BTW, that tank (or what is left of it) was destroyed by a German assault gun of the 303th Assault Gun Brigade, not by Finnish tank hunters as usually mentioned in the Finnish literature.It may well be so. From what source did you get the info, if I may ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmo Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Originally posted by Keke: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Osmo: I noted from the list that from these 29 NCOs two were First Sergeants (=vääpeli; usually translated as Warrant Officer but I find "First Sergeant" better), one was Staff Sergeant (ylikersantti), five were Sergeants (kersantti) and 21 were Corporals (alikersantti). Out of the 130 enlisted men about 25 were Lance-Corporals, of which only three or four served in NCO positions. So at least according to this book, korpaali was not a NCO.So the confusion comes from the fact that Finnish Alikersanttis were Corporals and Finnish Korpraalis were Lance-Corporals (in English)?</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmo Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Originally posted by Keke: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Osmo: BTW, that tank (or what is left of it) was destroyed by a German assault gun of the 303th Assault Gun Brigade, not by Finnish tank hunters as usually mentioned in the Finnish literature.It may well be so. From what source did you get the info, if I may ask?</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miikka Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Translated info about the "destroyed tank" picture (from Suomalainen Korpisoturi -book): Maybe the most published AT-picture of our countrys war history: smoking remains of a long barreled Sotka (nickname for T-34), taken on the last day of June, 1944. This T-34/76 D -version was meant to be a commanding tank, it had a characteristic hexagonal turret. Painted on the side was a number 450. Presumably a shot from a german assault gun hit the lower part of the tank, rendering it immobile. Alikersantti Matti Huppunen fired a shot with panzerfaust, and the shot completed the destruction of the tank: the shot tore off the turret which hurled away from the main body of the tank. The commander of the tank must´ve been located in the upper part of the turret, otherwise he wouldn´t have been able to escape from the tank in between the two shots. Finnish troops, carrying panzerfausts, examine the destruction: the men are from II/JR 12, Kersantti Kalle Niemelä (left) and Heino Nikulassi (died during the next day in Ihantala hill). On the farmost left side of the picture, is a panzergrenadier Eino Heikkilä from regiments artillerycompany. SA-picture (meaning Finnish army). Miikka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keke Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Siel kärysivät ukkoloihe perskarvat... Thanx for the info, Miikka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Originally posted by Jussi Köhler: /** Edited: Do not confuse the fact that the Sissi is still a very "combatant" unit, not a spy. He was one of the most trained Finnish units in the wars **/ IMO a good translation for a Sissi unit would be a LRRP unit (Long Range Recce Patrol). The function of a Sissi unit would be an amalgamation of regular combat duties at the front lines, sabotage (far) behind enemy lines (a la Brandenburgers, OSS or commandoes), pursuit of enemy recce and partisan units trying to get back to their own lines (in the Finnish sector the Partisan movement was organized from across the front line and not inside the Finnish lines) and battle field reconnaisance (a la LRRP). Jääkäri is pretty much the same as the German Jaeger, your normal infantry man in the army. That is true as of today but not during WWII. Since the original Jaegers were the ones trained by the Imperial German army during WWI the tittle Jaeger was reserved for especially well trained and proficient troops. IIRC the Jaegers units were made out of the younger men of military age(also reservists). The Lahti m/30 Anti-Tank Rifle was named after its inventor, Aimo Lahti. Lahti is as well a city in Finland. In the simplest form lahti means also a bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Originally posted by Keke: Originally posted by Osmo: BTW, that tank (or what is left of it) was destroyed by a German assault gun of the 303th Assault Gun Brigade, not by Finnish tank hunters as usually mentioned in the Finnish literature.It may well be so. From what source did you get the info, if I may ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prinz Eugen Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Have we come to a consensus on whether or not Korpraali was an NCO or not?In modern day Finnish army korpraali is not an NCO. I believe this was the case in the WW II aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts