AI bug? Snipers ignore troops right next to them in dark

[maxm2]

Randomly-generated scenario against a human opponent: night, cloudy (so maximum los of about 60 meters). My German snipers, which I use (realistically or not) as scouts have been:

1. walking (move command) right by Allied troops in tall pines or woods--within four meters sometimes;

2. refusing to fire on Allied troops as close as four or five meters away, even when the allied units are only spotter or anti-tank teams, and after my snipers have targeted the units.

This has happened repeatedly in this game. I can see the troops occasionally not noticing each other in woods areas (especially if they're sneaking), or my sniper being afraid to fire on more than one soldier, but the distances seem to me to be too close, and the refusal to fire at "small" targets too scardy-cat by snipers who fire on tanks the next minute. I just have never seen this kind of AI behavior so consistently and (I think) unrealistically before.

--Max

[FriendlyFire]

Not a bug. Snipers don't like shooting at targets less than 100m away, for fear of giving themselves away with muzzle flash/noise. Ok, so it's dark and they are happily targetting tanks at 60m, but they'd be nuts to try and engage anyone at 5m. Look at it from the sniper's perspective: you might get the guy with the zook/binoculars, but then his assistant is gonna be bashing you over the head with the spare rounds/radio set while you try and cycle your (heavy, bolt action) sniper rifle

[This message has been edited by FriendlyFire (edited 02-16-2001).]

[CJMello]

Firing on them would be suicide and defeat the purpose of the sniper (sharpshooter). strike from a distance, one shot one kill.

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War Is Heck !!!

[Maugan]

BS. I have noticed that before and always assumed it was a bug. Are you seriously telling me that if you were sniping in a church tower, and saw someone speaking german walking up the stairs with a radio and no gun and giving out map coordinates of your army, that you would not take him out? A sniper rifle kills dead at 1-600 meters. Rediculious that a Sniper couldnt fire on said target untill he ran 60m away and got a much worse shot.

Also, I find it quite annoying that snipers, moarter teams, and spotters have less basic armorment than a paniced tank crew. A 6 man morter team ALWAYS had weapons other than the main tube. These units should atleast get the small firepower and low ammo that crew's get when out of their normal ammo.

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Maugan:

Also, I find it quite annoying that snipers, moarter teams, and spotters have less basic armorment than a paniced tank crew.

These subjects have been debated almost to death before.

Basically I agree with you, but there are a couple of well founded arguments to why the game parametres are as they are.

- Playability.

Adding firearms to these crews would encourage use of them in an undesired, gamey way, as vehicle crews were until some of the latest patches were applied. These small teams are not meant to be used as some reserve close assault teams.

Arguments have been raised to now give heavy weapon crews and FOs the same type of armament as vehicle crews. (With Low ammo from start.)

- Programming issues.

How do you implement correct use of small arms for these units? Sometimes use of small arms would be correct, other times it wouldn't...

As for your example about the sniper and the FO:

In this case it would probably not be an FO chatting over the radio as he stroll up the stairs, but more probably sneaking around with his pistol/SMG ready. Not to mention that he's got a buddy for support...

The sharpshooter might, at best, hit one of them with his first shot, then the other will take out the shooter.

Cheers

Olle

[Maugan]

What it comes down to is if tank crews get pistols to defend themselves, then all crews with special/heavy weapons should have a side arm when out of ammo. I don't think the programing angle would be a problem. Rifle units in this game manage their assortment of guns, rifle grenades, and hand grenades in a very realistic way, so I find it hard to belive that making a moarter team draw a pistol to defend it's self is an insurmountable obstical. As far as this being 'undesirable' I just don't understand. Do you think that a machine gun crew that was out of ammo just sat there and watched the rest of the fight while their friends get mowed down around them? I'm not saying they should charge Berlin on their own. If a moarter crew with pistols walking at 1 kph will unbalance the game, then a tank crew walking at 2kph with pistols is doubly unbalancing. Obviously no-one is winning games with masses of tank/gun crews (which STILL make great scouts btw) so I don't see why this is an issue.

As for the sniper situation, sure he won't automaticly kill everything he shoots at, as well he shouldn't. (For the sake of arguement we will assume the spotter unit is armed like you describe, even though there is no such thing represented in the game) But in your version of this scene, he simply sits there untill they are on top of him, there are 2 of them, he is 1, he won't fire to save his soul, he is dead and no use to his army. Would you not atleast TRY to save your own hide? Is it not better to kill an enemy then die than simply to die? There is a fork in the road ahead, and a sign that points 2 directions reading 'Chance to Live' and 'Certian Death.' Which path do you pick?

I understand the argument, but there should atleast be a chance that a sniper would choose to risk giving away his spot when seeing a valueable target or when said spot is about to be over-run anyway. The beuaty of this game is the realism. Anything that sets such a hard and binding rule in the gameplay contrasts sharply with the amazing AI that all the other units seem to display.

-Maugan

[abuassad]

with regards 2 tank crews: i had one that had its tank worsted by a six-pounder, capture the crew of that same six pounder! 'smazing, don't u think?

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Maugan:

I find it hard to belive that making a moarter team draw a pistol to defend it's self is an insurmountable obstical. As far as this being 'undesirable' I just don't understand.

The key is self defence. What prevents a player from moving these guys half a mile towards the enemy for a last assault, once they've run out of mortar ammo? Nothing! That's how vehicle crews were commonly used in this game until recently fixed.

MG crews don't have this problem in CM, since they are supposed to be "up front" and always have ammo and small arms available.

As for the sniper situation, ... in your version of this scene, he simply sits there untill they are on top of him, ...

No he doesn't. He tries to simply avoid detection by hiding or sneaking out the other way.

... there should at least be a chance that a sniper would choose to risk giving away his spot when seeing a valueable target or when said spot is about to be over-run anyway.

Sharpshooters do shoot in self defence when receiving fire. (Since FOs are one of the few troops that don't shoot at sharpshooters, the sharpshooters don't shoot them at close range.)

Cheers

Olle

(Edited some minor errors.)

[This message has been edited by Olle Petersson (edited 03-02-2001).]

[sabiticus]

Here's a bit of a note regarding tank crews and small arms... They often didn't have them!.. My grandfather crewed a tank that was disabled, and was captured a few weeks after dday... He said that a lot of the time tank crews were left without personal arms by the unit hq... Of course, had he been armed, he probably would have fought and been killed... Instead he spent a while as a POW...