Mortar LOS

[RobC]

OK, now that MadMatt has fully enlightened us on mortar and artillery (I'll send you the link to his recent post if you can't find by searching) usage in CM, I am ready to post my question.

Mortars in CM are required to have LOS either themselves or by their HQ to the target location in order to fire at that location (unless firing on the predetermined fire target and not moving since setup). I believe that this is totally unrealistic and ahistorical. With this feature in place, any infantry unit can make itself immune to attack by mortar fire by simply hiding behind a hill, trees or building out of LOS of the enemy. This is totally unrealistic, since mortar fire was typically used in an indirect fire mode to hit troops (and terrain where enemy troops were suspected to be) that couldn't be seen directly. If the enemy, or the ground where enemy is suspected to be, were visible (i.e. in LOS), then it would have been (and would be) attacked by direct fire from conventional weapons!

Steve, Charles, I would like you change this in the 1.02 patch to allow mortars in C&C with their HQ to be able to indirect fire to any location on the map (in range) regardless of whether it is in LOS of the HQ or not. Each HQ leader had a map of the battlefield and could direct the mortar team to fire, for example one hundred yards directly ahead, etc, even to terrain he couldn't directly observe where he suspect enemy troops may be located.

Thanks for a great game,

Rob C.

[Buckeye]

IIRC, mortars can fire indirectly at an area, but with a substantial penalty for accuracy. At least I know that's the case for offboard artillery.

[RobC]

Buckeye,

Thats true for off-board artillery, but not on-map mortars.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Rob, I wont comment myself on their use in this role as it is certainally not something I have studied, but I did want to say a couple of things.

* On map mortar use was reviewed extensively in the beta process and was designed to operate the way it does becuase in the role where it is being used on map in a Combat Mission game it indeed does need an LOS to the target as it was discussed it would have in WW2.

* There were currently serving military personel on the beta team whom discussed the operation of on map mortars in detail and if I recall were in agreement with the was it was placed in operation in the game.

* If a mortar dosnt move in the game I *belive* it can target a TRP, which is realistic from what was discussed.

Hope thats of interest Bottom line is that I believe that the current use of mortars on map in cm IS realistic after the discussions on the topic.

[DrD]

I think in SOME cases fire out of LOS should be allowed. For example, in CE as Amis I knew that German were in the woods on the victory hill on the left. My mortars had LOS to the edge of the woods but not of course into the middle of the woods. I couldn't see why if they could see the edge of the woods they couldn't simply adjust their weapons to fire a bit further thereby landing rounds slightly into the woods. Although I will as always bow to the opinions of those who have actually done this in real life, I believe that fire out of LOS for mortars should be allowed within a certain radius of a spot that is in LOS.

[RobC]

DrD:

I agree. Mortar fire was (and still is) directed by a visual observation of where the shells land. But the mortar team or associated HQ should be able to direct the fire to some small radius beyond the direct LOS.

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobC:

Mortars in CM are required to have LOS either themselves or by their HQ to the target location in order to fire at that location (unless firing on the predetermined fire target and not moving since setup). I believe that this is totally unrealistic and ahistorical. With this feature in place, any infantry unit can make itself immune to attack by mortar fire by simply hiding behind a hill, trees or building out of LOS of the enemy. This is totally unrealistic, since mortar fire was typically used in an indirect fire mode to hit troops (and terrain where enemy troops were suspected to be) that couldn't be seen directly. If the enemy, or the ground where enemy is suspected to be, were visible (i.e. in LOS), then it would have been (and would be) attacked by direct fire from conventional weapons!

Steve, Charles, I would like you change this in the 1.02 patch to allow mortars in C&C with their HQ to be able to indirect fire to any location on the map (in range) regardless of whether it is in LOS of the HQ or not. Each HQ leader had a map of the battlefield and could direct the mortar team to fire, for example one hundred yards directly ahead, etc, even to terrain he couldn't directly observe where he suspect enemy troops may be located.

Thanks for a great game,

Rob C.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But isn't this unrealistic, given the time frame and scope of CMs scenarios? We're not talking about supporting mortars, or harassing mortars, or interdiction mortars, but frontline, direct support mortars in relatively quick defense/assault scenarios. Given their role, and rather low ammo loads, wouldn't it be irresponsible for the unit themselves, or on map HQs to say, "hey, my guys think they heard movement/thought they saw something over thataway, or 'I just have this feeling', why don't you sling a significant chunk of your limited on board ammo over that way in the hopes that it's the right thing"? I mean, we, as players, have the magic flying camera of godlike determination and are only playing a game. Would a real on-map unit or HQ decide to spend a significant portion of an on-map, direct call/observation unit's ammo in the hopes or expectation of doing an enemy harm? That seems to me more the province of off map units, whose ammo supply or lack there of won't be a hinge point for 'what suddenly to my wondering eyes should appear' type situations. What you seem to be speaking of would be 'harassing' or 'interdiction' type fire, which would seem to be outside the province of units dealing with a 30-120 minute assault/defense with little or no means of immediate resupply. But I would be the first to admit I have no real world experience and am not quoting from first hand and/or reference materials. This would appear to me to be a common-sense/real world call. In playing the demo, and now the full game, I went from regarding on map mortars as useless and 'too dificult' to use, to agonizing over placing/moving them into position to gain the most advantage for the limited time they're available for fire. While dropping their load, or a significant portion of it onto what my tactical sense, and my 'superior' terrain knowledge tells me is the right place, would it truly be justified in 'historical', real battlefield conditions? Just a counter thought, and not a dismissal (out of hand) of your point.

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[jabberwock]

I've been trying out VoT and I keep getting my 150mm killed by arty.

I've spotted the arty squad running down the front of the big hill, but by the time the 150mm swings 'round they've hidden in the bush and the gun picks another target. I've tried targeting about 2m in front of where I think the arty spotter is hiding, but my 150mm won't shoot there, even though it has a clear shot. He'll just target something else immediately after the turn starts How come he won't target the patch of trees and wipe out the spotter (or a least keep his head down so he won't have time to call in arty on the hilltop)??? He's got a Company commander sitting right beside him, and several mortars behind the hill.

Speaking of mortars, how do I get them to target stuff they can't see but the Company HQ can? They're under his command, and in contact range, but they won't target stuff that they don't have a direct LOS to. I'd love to use the mortars from behind the hill so that they can bombard in (relative) safety, as long as their commander has LOS to the target.

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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...

-HAL 9000, 2001

[This message has been edited by jabberwock (edited 06-27-2000).]

[Buckeye]

Are you using area fire? Mortars won't fire directly at units if they are controlled by a HQ unit (i.e., if you are using indirect fire). They can only fire at a general area. As for the 150 mm IG, it tends not to "stick" with a given target very well. This has been addressed to a certain extent in the patch for the full game.

[DrD]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buckeye:

Are you using area fire? Mortars won't fire directly at units if they are controlled by a HQ unit (i.e., if you are using indirect fire). They can only fire at a general area. As for the 150 mm IG, it tends not to "stick" with a given target very well. This has been addressed to a certain extent in the patch for the full game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the full game you don't have to use area fire. This was corrected before the patch. As to the gun, this is probably realistic. Just because you as the player know there is a unit in those trees doesn't mean the gun crew does. They have a tendency to engage target they can see at the time. In real life, if you were the captain of that gun, imagine if you saw a qiuck glimpse of some guys who then disappeared. Just when you think about dropping a shell in the area you think they are, you clearly see a squad of the enemy somewhere else. What do you think you're gonna do? You sure don't want that new enemy unit to start hurling lead in your direction while you're shooting at phantoms.

I do believe that the "stickiness" of area fire has been increased in the final version, but in general area-firing units have a tendency to engage alternate targets in LOS. How likely this is depends on the perceived threat of the target and how close it is to the original area fire target. So if you did area fire on those spotters, then suddenly they popped back into LOS near where you were shooting, your gun would target them as you would expect and want them to.