Are minefields represented correctly?

[Mark Gallear]

In the game actual minefields are hidden until spotted only hastily placed “Daisy-chain mines” are easily spotted as they are hastily placed above the surface.

This does not fit in with my idea of how mines were used – the Russians before Moscow and the Germans at El Alamein placed minefields many miles wide and deep. The minefield's boundaries would have been clearly marked. I would have thought the attacker during his set-up would know the disposition of such weapons. Do you represent such mines by normal AT or anti personal mines or use daisy chain mines? The fact that Engineers can now clear paths through such mines is a big improvement in the game system but where are the T-34s with special mine-rollers?

Daisy Chain mines are supposed to represent rapidly placed booby traps for tanks not personnel but these were more likely to be hidden and not easily spotted. So do I use normal mines for this effect or the hastily placed “Daisy chain mines”? I recently watched a clip of film of Russian soldiers laying AT mines along a road as hidden booby traps. As the road was basically mud – they placed the mine in the track of a vehicle on the road and even had a spare tyre to place fresh tracks on top! The film lasted seconds.

I also perplexed by the introduction dates of Russian Infantry Anti Tank weapons – my understanding is that the PTRD 1941 was available at the start of the war, but is missing from the lists. :confused:

You have to buy the Ampulenjot system Kartukov – this was developed some time in 1941 after the war had started as a stop gap homeguard weapon in much the same way as the British Northover projector, which was never used in combat. (German reports note the sudden appearance of this weapon). It does vaguely look like a mortar and fired a Molotov type projectile using blackpowder ignited with a percussion cap! By 1942 it had just about disappeared.

[Mark Gallear]

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that nobody is interested in modelling mine fields or even in Russian infantry weapons - found two with the introduction dates wrong!

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

I also perplexed by the introduction dates of Russian Infantry Anti Tank weapons – my understanding is that the PTRD 1941 was available at the start of the war, but is missing from the lists. :confused:

You have to buy the Ampulenjot system Kartukov – this was developed some time in 1941 after the war had started as a stop gap homeguard weapon in much the same way as the British Northover projector, which was never used in combat. (German reports note the sudden appearance of this weapon). It does vaguely look like a mortar and fired a Molotov type projectile using blackpowder ignited with a percussion cap! By 1942 it had just about disappeared.

With this reasoning the Panther should be available in late 42. There is a gap in developing/designing a weapon and actual deployment to front line troops.

[White Phosphorus]

My understanding is that the PTRD wasn't available in 41 because the Soviets considered it to be a useless weapon against monstrous German tanks (this is one of the reasons for developing KVs). And they never produced any riffles in great enough quantities, but when the war broke out, it turned out that the Germans had quite a lot of very light tanks that an ATR could destroy with ease, so the PTRD was rushed back into production and service. I think it took them one month to set up 100% production of thing, from scratch (they had to come up with, and make the proper tools, gauges etc).

[Foxbat]

The month mentioned by WP is about right, amazing if you think about it. The soviets actually had an ATR before the war (the Rukavishnikov rifle) in 14.5mm, but it was considered unsuited to mass production and they decided it would be better to design entirely new rifles in the same calibre (this was actually after the germans had invaded). Both Degtyarev (PTRD) and Simonov (PTRS) came up with capable designs that were hastily accepted, and the rest is history.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

The fact that Engineers can now clear paths through such mines is a big improvement in the game system but where are the T-34s with special mine-rollers?

[snips]

Never mind that. I want the LMG rocket-mine.

All the best,

John.

[Mark Gallear]

This is news to me my sources claim that the PTRD 1941 came into service in mid 1941 and was around at the start of the war. If it was rare in the first couples of months then rarity costs should come into play. The PTRS-41 a bit later. Information on the Ampulenjot is a lot less clear coming from German intelligence sources. I suspect around Sept-oct 1941 and all but gone by mid 1942.

I was pretty generous in saying that it vaguely resembled a Mortar. If anybody can put it up for everbody to see. Email me and I will send a scanned picture along. maybe some kind soul will mod it for us.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

This is news to me my sources claim that the PTRD 1941 came into service in mid 1941 and was around at the start of the war. If it was rare in the first couples of months then rarity costs should come into play. The PTRS-41 a bit later. Information on the Ampulenjot is a lot less clear coming from German intelligence sources. I suspect around Sept-oct 1941 and all but gone by mid 1942.

I was pretty generous in saying that it vaguely resembled a Mortar. If anybody can put it up for everbody to see. Email me and I will send a scanned picture along. maybe some kind soul will mod it for us.

Yet mine have initial combat service during the defence of Moscow with wide spread service occurring during 42. This dovetails nicely with the Germans beginning to capture PTRD in 42. Pz Regt reports and AARs only noting that Soviet Anti-tank rifles became a wide spread and dangerous during 42. Panzer Regts don't even note the danger or use by the Soviets of antitank rifles during 41.

[ October 31, 2002, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[von Lucke]

According to Zaloga in The Red Army Handbook, the PTRD was developed and put into production in late 1940. The PTRD was even in the TOE of some Sov units in June 1941. Problem was, there wasn't any ammo for it! The tungsten was being used for other, more high priority items. It wasn't until August / September '41 that the Sovs geared up toward mass-production of ATRs and, more importantly, ammo for them.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

According to Zaloga in The Red Army Handbook, the PTRD was developed and put into production in late 1940. The PTRD was even in the TOE of some Sov units in June 1941. Problem was, there wasn't any ammo for it! The tungsten was being used for other, more high priority items. It wasn't until August / September '41 that the Sovs geared up toward mass-production of ATRs and, more importantly, ammo for them.

Oh goody, a reference works war . According to Bolotin (Soviet Small-Arms and Ammunition) the PTRD & PTRS entered development in july 1941, underwent state testing in August and were immediatly put in production.

The reference to a 14.5mm ATR is probably the Rukavishnikov rifle, that had entered production in 1940.

Now it is very well possible that the bullets weren't availble early in the war either. The B-32 steel core bullet was only officialy accepted in july 1941, and the tungsten core B-41 projectile was only ready in august.

Now that I think of it, they might have accepted the delay that designing new weapons would bring knowing that ammo production was not yet underway.

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Foxbat:

[QB]Oh goody, a reference works war . According to Bolotin (Soviet Small-Arms and Ammunition) the PTRD & PTRS entered development in july 1941, underwent state testing in August and were immediatly put in production.

The reference to a 14.5mm ATR is probably the Rukavishnikov rifle, that had entered production in 1940.[QB]

"Initial designs, however, proved difficult to produce, and the first 50 of the revised PTRD-1941 weapons did not come off the assembly line until late 1940, and even then ammunition could not be produced until late 1941."

Seems pretty specific to me --- but then, this is the only source I've read that says anything on the subject at all, so I hesitate to call it definitive, but Zaloga usually knows what he's talking about.

[TN]

Hey, how about those Soviet anti-tank dogs that had explosive packs on their backs and had been taught to look for food under tanks ? I think they should be modeled in the next version of the game engine. Complete with different breeds of dogs that have different payloads and speeds, and of course different hit probabilities.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

Seems pretty specific to me --- but then, this is the only source I've read that says anything on the subject at all, so I hesitate to call it definitive, but Zaloga usually knows what he's talking about.

I agree that Zaloga usuallly knows his stuff, and the Red Army Handbook is one hell of a reference work, so I looked up what sources he credits...

Bolotin: Soviet Small-Arms and Ammunition is the only dealing specifically with small arms

"Initial designs, however, proved difficult to produce, and the first 50 of the revised PTRD-1941 weapons did not come off the assembly line until late 1940, and even then ammunition could not be produced until late 1941."

This seems to refer to the Rukavishnikov rifle, this weapon was accepted in 1939 and an order was given for the production of 50 rifles in 1939. This order was initially cancelled/delayed but ultimatly enforced in 1940..

The Rukavishnikov rifle was found difficult to produce and hence the decision was taken to design new weapons.

I think this is a minor glitch, it isa reasonable perfectly reasonnable summary of what happened. Except the term PTRD-41 is used where it should say early designs or "Rukavishnikov Rifle".

That would also have made more sense, because the designation PTRD-1941 would logically refer to a weapon accepted for production in 1941 rather than 1939. And the idea that the PTRD might have been "hard to produce" also strikes me as a bit quaint.

The bullet issue is close enough, although widely open to interpretation. As I understand it the BS-32 projectiles were available in some quantity (that's what they used to test the weapons with) but a official testing and acceptance program happened only in july 1941, after it had been decided that the Red Army would actually use a weapon that would require these bullets. And improved (hard-core) projectiles were indeed availble only later again. But Bolotin suggests that that is because design of these rounds was only undertaken during testing of the normal rounds.

[Foxbat]

Zaloga in the Army Handbook, page 193 mentions that the Red Army settled on the PTRD & PTRS in August 1941. I guess that settles it, back to minefields...

[Mark Gallear]

I am gob smacked!

Chris Bishop WWII: The Directory of Weapons lists the PTRD just coming into use at the invasion – no mention of ammo thing!

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/6498/t2000ww2sovietsmallarms.html

This web site takes line introduced shortly before –

Hog & Weeks Military Small Arms of the 20th Century gives only 1941 as the year of introduction but says the bullet was originally a steel-cored streamlined armour piercing type, but this was superseded by a non-streamlined tungsten-cored armour piercing-incendiary pattern.

White Phosphorus and Bastables, view that AT rifles were considered useless and only came into service in 1942 largely borne out by some of the web sites I have found.

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/bookshelf/weapons/weapons3.html http://www.tdg.nu/resources/Russian%20Zone/Equipment.htm

This Russian site contradicts itself and says PTRD goes into official soviet Tows in Oct 1941 and Dec 1941.

July 1941 many designers received the tasking to develop antitank rifles in the shortest possible time. Simultaneously an attempt was made to put into production the 7.92-mm German PzB-39 rifle as a temporary measure. A month later the design bureaus of V. A. Degtyarev and S. G. Simonov presented their own rifles for range testing, designed around the 14.5-mm cartridge. Because neither rifle was substantially better than the other, both were adopted for general use.

http://www.ankkurinvarsi.net/jaeger/AT_RIFLES2.htm

Finnish site – says same that Russian have no – AT rifles at start of war but PTRS Rifle in service in August 1941 but only 77 made by years end increasing to 63,000 by end of 1942. For PTRD went into service in August 1941 and 17700 made by end of year.

Another Russian site not in use until Sept

http://www.stormpages.com/garyjkennedy/Weapons/infantryantitank/infantry_anti_tank_weapons.htm

This Western site says that they had them at start of war but no ammo until 1942.

Not sure when the game introduces the gun but my conclusion is that the Russians were developing them before war and very limited issues were made in Sept 1941 with the crappy ammo. Therefor should be in game in Sept 1941 but made very rare and expensive.

For the Ampulenjot, the only web reference I could find was far a Close Combat mod! I think date of introduction is two early and should be pushed back to September as well – what does everybody else say. Can anybody put my picture up the game representation as a mortar is pretty bad – you have to see it to believe it.

Ok what is everbody else thoughts on the mines?

[L.Tankersley]

Ok what is everbody else thoughts on the mines?

I suspect BFC would say that mineroller tanks and other specialized equipment, as well as major minefield breaching operations in general, are out of scope of what CM:BB is trying to accomplish. They would probably also say that the minefields that can be purchased in the game engine are intended to represent hasty, point minefields, not the major mine belts that you refer to. If you want to model major minefield belts, you could I suppose buy LOTS and LOTS of small minefields and plunk them down, and use landmarks (or a border of daisy-chain mines) to mark the edge of the mined area.

[Brian Rock]

I agree with Leland. If you want to simulate the large belts of minefields you buy squillions of them and mark them. I personally prefer wire, but that's just a personal taste thing.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by Brian Rock:

I agree with Leland. If you want to simulate the large belts of minefields you buy squillions of them and mark them. I personally prefer wire, but that's just a personal taste thing.

I prefer both mixed with a few TRPs

Enemy troops blunder into the mine field, they automatically fall back and get caught in the wire, and by this time I've called in Arty on the TRP. That spells fun with a capital "Incoming!"

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Foxbat:

Zaloga in the Army Handbook, page 193 mentions that the Red Army settled on the PTRD & PTRS in August 1941. I guess that settles it, back to minefields...

Again this reasoning would result in Panthers in 1942.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Bastables:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Foxbat:

Zaloga in the Army Handbook, page 193 mentions that the Red Army settled on the PTRD & PTRS in August 1941.

Again this reasoning would result in Panthers in 1942.[/QB]</font>