rune Posted December 15, 2002 Share Posted December 15, 2002 Guys, Creating a scenario with Finnish Infantry and Germans Panzers. The actual battle took place on the road between Sulla and Alakurtti. What I need to know: 1. The main road between the two during 1941, paved or dirt? 2. Terrain is a mix of swamp, forest [pine i assume], and hills, I found one map, but anything you have would be appreciated. 3. Any information about 6th Division also appreciated. I have a source book from here, but another reference never hurts. 4. Any additional information you have will be appreciated. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luihu Posted December 15, 2002 Share Posted December 15, 2002 Originally posted by rune: The actual battle took place on the road between Sulla and Alakurtti.I assume that you mean Salla - Alakurtti. Well, back then there weren't any paved roads in whole Lapland as far as I know. Terrain is quite like you described it, though there are also firs. These arrow "candle firs" grow usually around swamps and rivers. They have also some undergrowth (willows, dwarf birches and such), so you can place woods in your map also. The 6th SS. mountain division you say? I don't have much to offer but: http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/ss-6.htm http://www.wssob.com/006divnor.html http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/nord-salla.html Quite general information, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted December 15, 2002 Share Posted December 15, 2002 I could browse through some reference works when visiting relatives during Xmas, if the questions are still relevant at that point of time. Please send me email about units of interest, that would help. Br, Jukka-Pekka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keke Posted December 15, 2002 Share Posted December 15, 2002 Originally posted by Luihu: The 6th SS. mountain division you say?I think rune means Finnish 6th Division, which was led by Colonel Werner Vikman, had three infantry regiments (JR 12, JR 33, JR 54), one light detachment (Kevyt osasto 3 (inf btn)), one pioneer btn (Pioneeripataljoona 36), and an artillery regiment (KTR 14). Roads were very poor in the area. German XXXVI Korps had two Panzer Abteilungs (btns), which had Pz I, Pz IIF, Pz IIID, Pz IIIE, and H-39 tanks. Here´s a very simple map about the operations between Salla and Alakurtti: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Survivalisti Posted December 15, 2002 Share Posted December 15, 2002 Originally posted by rune: 1. The main road between the two during 1941, paved or dirt? 2. Terrain is a mix of swamp, forest [pine i assume], and hills, I found one map, but anything you have would be appreciated. 3. Any information about 6th Division also appreciated. I have a source book from here, but another reference never hurts. 4. Any additional information you have will be appreciated. Rune1. Dirt, and in poor condition. 3. The 6th was formed in Lappland area, and many of it's soldiers had combat experience from the Winter War. During the Continuation War this division was the only Finnish army unit commanded by Germans. The division took part to General Diet's plan called "Polar Fox." 6th had 12.000 men, while full-strength Finnish inf.division should have had 16.348 Finnish Infantry Division's structure, 1941: Three Infantry Regiments Field Artillery Regiment Heavy Battery AA-Battery AT-Company (With gun calibres 37-45mm, Bofors being most common) Pioneer Company Signal Company Infantry Regiment's structure: Three Infantry Battalions AT-Company (equiptment as above) 3 Mortar Companies, 120mm 4. http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Kartat/cwdata/41Salla.html 1.7 Tuesday: Attack begins 5.7 Saturday: Germans are stopped in the area of Salla, and after official request of help, Infantry Regiment 14 is transferred to the area from Åland. 8.7 Tuesday: The German forces commanded by Feige are finally able to seize Salla, but especially the SS Nord suffers heavy casualties, in fact Germans aren't able to continue their offensive actions at all until 18.8 18.8 Tuesday: 03.30 the 6th Infantry begins their 50km long encirlement attack to the rear areas of the Russian defences at Kuolaanjärvi area. The road to Alakurtti is cut, and several enemy units are totally encirled to the road area motti's. 22.8 Saturday: The elements of the 169th Division and SS-Division "Nord" encirle the main enemy forces in the area of Kuolajärvi. In the following battles the bulk of the enemy forces is able to slip away from the motti to east in the area of the 169th Division. After these battles the attack continued, with SS Nord in the middle in road area, 6th Finnish Infantry in the southern flank and the German 169th in the north. A new Russian defence line was met in the River Tuntsa, and when it was finally breached in Semptember, the tired attackers found out that the Russians had fortified another riverline at Voita River. By now the German 169th had lost over 2500 men, and the remaining soldiers were tired and poorly supplied due the extremely poor roads of the area. And when the Voita-line was finally breached, exhausted Germans met yet another well- fortified defence line, again positioned behind a river, this time called Verma, only 10km east from Voita. 8. October: German HQ calls of further attacks in this area, and the exhausted attackers dug in and prepared to spend their first winter in northern Finland. The attackers had advanced 80km from their starting positions. The XXXVI Army Corps has suffered severe casualties, and despite their best efforts, has been unable to reach either Murmansk or the railway. In southern flank of this operation, the famous Hjalmar Siilasvuo (Suomussalmi, anyone?) had led his forces to Kiestinki, 64km from the Murmansk Railroad. Mannerheim, however, does not allow him to continue is attack to Louhi, and Murmansk railroad remains uncut. Germans are furious, but can't force Finns to continue their attack. Large-scale operations won't occur here until year -44. [ December 16, 2002, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Survivalisti ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 16, 2002 Author Share Posted December 16, 2002 Correct, the 6th Finnish Infantry Division. The battle will not be the attack on Salla, but the cutting of the road, and the attempt to take a bridge. Russians counter attacks with infantry and a couple of armored cars. [unless someone has anything on tanks, but haven't found anything]. So, will be a meeting engagement since you cannot put attack for oth sides. Panzer Abt 211 with Infantry Regiment 54. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keke Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 Originally posted by rune: [unless someone has anything on tanks, but haven't found anything].Soviet 42nd Corps had 1st Tank Division under its command, which consisted of two tank regiments and one motorized infantry regiment. According to my sources Pz Abt 211 had initially 24 H-39s and 8 Pz IIIEs, while Soviet tank regiments (1st and 2nd) had chiefly BT-7s and T-26s (initially 197 tanks altogether). [ December 15, 2002, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Keke ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 16, 2002 Author Share Posted December 16, 2002 Keke, I show Panzer Abt 211 with Somoa and Hothkiss, while Panzer Abt 40, which parts were combined with 211 to make a task force, had panzer IIs and IIIs. I have a mix of tanks along with a regular Finnish infantry for the 54th Regiment. Doing the best I can with what I have... Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 16, 2002 Author Share Posted December 16, 2002 I sent the map to Survi to see if it is a good representation of the area. I think it is good from the photos I have seen, but will change it if need be. I got the troops already in, and testing will begin once the map is OK'd. I played it myself, and it develops slow, but is now turning into a wicked fight. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 Very interesting - I would be interested in specific references to info mentioned by other posters. And of course in the scenario as well! As it happens my late grandfather participated in the operation in II/JR54 (Sovajärvi-Tuutijärvi 1.7.1941, Nenäpalo 7.7.-17.8., Isonselänlaki 19.-22.8., Tuorevaara 28.8., Nuottavaara 29.-31.8., Keski-Vilmajoki 19.-24.9., and Ala-Vilmajoki 8.10.1941-8.1.1942). Br, Jukka-Pekka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 16, 2002 Author Share Posted December 16, 2002 JPS, My source is the book available here for sale. Wehrmacht Panzers in Finland Panzer units in Finland 1941-1944 "Wehrmachtin panssarit Suomessa Saksalaiset panssariyksiköt Suomessa 1941-1944" Size: 8.5" x 12" Pictures: 170 drawings, maps and photos Pages: 270 pages Binding: Hardcover Author: Kari Kuusela Text and Picture Captions: Chapters written in Finnish first and then English. All picture captions in both Finnish and English Publisher: Wiking-Divisioona Oy Price: $40 I was impressed enough by the book to make a scenario! Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Thanks Rune, might ask that one as Christmas present. I will do some reading during holidays - it might be interesting to do a scenario-based mini-campaign of the operation. Br, Jukka-Pekka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 17, 2002 Author Share Posted December 17, 2002 Well, I haven't heard from Survi yet if the map is accurate...but in the emantime I sent it to some testers to play around with. Anyone here want to test this one? Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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