Bütgenbach

[GeoffP]

Has anyone tried this (large) scenario from gamesofwar.com? I just dusted off some books after getting my feet wet with CM and was absolutely amazed at the account of this battle in the book "Against the Panzers".

The number of bazookas stockpiled by the American defenders, the effectiveness of the 57mm AT guns and the enormous number of fire missions by battalion artillery were not what I expected to read, particularly after reading the CM manual. I was also surprised at the way the German forces, mostly from the 12th SS Panzer, was sent forward in piecemeal attacks and got their behinds kicked.

This book has been knocked for offering little insight, and they more or less ignore the impact of the soft ground and heavy fog.

Great game. Great message board.

[GeoffP]

Oops. Thats www.gamesofwar.de

[Panzer Man]

I am in the middle of this scenario now..And I had read a lot on this amazing battle as well.(also created a scenario for SPI for Novastar).So far the scenario has not played out like I thought it would..The Allies arty has been very light..My only real losses being two tanks stuck in the mud. I have not encountered any AT guns or Allied Armor yet but I know its there,somewhere..As for bugs,I am using 1.03 and in the background is a long green patch of lights..Being a night scenario it really stands out..Also I never checked the fog of war setting and played it at designers settings,but it appears every Allied position pops up after turn 2...That kind of ruins the sense of dread up ahead..I know where just about every Joe is ..If u play it make sure you Play with fog of war on..There is no way The Germans could see all those Men in the dark...I'll keep u posted as to how it plays out..

[Guest mch]

As the designer,I thought I'd chime in here:

I wanted to make the mud as harsh as possible.An adjutant of the Mk.IV

battalion reported seeing tanks in up

to the deck on the Afternoon of the jump

off.As to the Arty...I can't get the AI

to use it correctly,as in the "what's

up with smoke" thread,the Ai seems to use only smoke if there's so much as a Pz II

about.I've personally found the Ai to handle this one rather difficultly...The map really

channels attack and defense,but the Ai kinda overdoes it at times.

[Panzer Man]

I'm around turn 20 now and only two tanks were lost in the mud..I realized that the road is the only way to go and found that I have to use "move" in short spurts or else the damn AI will shoot my Armor across the mud and get stuck.This also happened in a Snow scenario as well..I have most of my troops at the first Building and the Allies are counterattacking ..My lead MKIV knocked out a halftrack..And the second arty barrage knocked out a Panthers main gun and wiped out 3 squads ...I hope there is no more of that..So far it has been fun.But its still early.And I see a large American force at the next Building..Looks ominous.

[GeoffP]

The book I read did mention the tanks sinking up to the rear deck, but they never acknowledge that this confirms that the Germans were essentially limited to the roads.

The fog was apparently so bad that the US commander actually called in arty on what he estimated were the most likely assembly areas.

[Panzer Man]

I'm at turn 25...I have an overwhelming force at the first Building..The Americans are attacking and getting beaten back badly...I have a small armored force driving down the main road..and a large infantry force making a flanking movement around the left side..It appears that the Americans are constantly being reinforced..and I have seen no Armor..The score is lopsided in their favor yet they are getting Hammered...My losses are Minimal so far..

[Guest mch]

The source I used was "the ardennes:battle of the bulge" by Hugh M. Cole,

a part of the U.S.Army in WWII ETO series

from the U.S. Center for Military History

of the U.S. Armed forces.

Charles B.Mc Donald said this account was,in

his opinion,the best account.I'd have to agree!I recommend it to anyone.they're kind of hard to find,(e-shopping excluded!)but

worth it.

Here's the synopsis of the probing action

wich the scenario covers:

"...moved against the 2nd Bn.The 33rd FA

opened up at once with an illum.shell,then

poured in WP and HE.Some of the enemy tanks

mired down before they reached the line;

others were discouraged by bazooka and Bn.

AT gun fire.Three tanks,however,kept on along

the road leading into D.Butgenbach until the 155-mm howitzers of the 5th FA began to lob HE uncomfortably close.Possibly crippled by concussion,the tanks were abandoned but the crews got away. the next"

Hugh M. Cole

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The fog was apparently so bad that the US commander actually called in arty on what he estimated were the most likely assembly areas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That took place on the night of 19-20 Dec.

My scenario covers the night of 18-19,

the day(well,night rather) before.

Thanks for taking an intrest in the scenario!

P.S.:PanzerMan,how are you playing?PBEM?

vs.AI?just curious.

I personally feel it's a better scenario when PBEM'd.

[This message has been edited by mch (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Panzer Man]

Im playing the AI,,Haven't tried E-mail yet..

[Panzer Man]

Just finished as the Germans and got hammered..I got most of my armor to the final flag but I couldnt get the points..There are so many Americans there.And by the time the German infantry reaches the final flag there isnt much left of em..I guess the scenario played out accuratelym,but I really felt I was dominating the whole time.I dont think u could win as the Germans..especially against a Human opponent,,all The Americans have to do is defend the Final flag..The first Flag is worthless...But it was fun.

[GeoffP]

I believe in the real battle, only a force of 4 panthers made it into the area, but got chased out/destroyed by a platoon of reserve M36s. Sounds like you did better.

Maybe some additional flags would add balance (?)

I know, I'm talking a lot for someone who has not played the scenario - heh heh.

[Panzer Man]

Geoff, I remember that as well,allied armor.There is none in this rendition.I believe the designer of this scenario was creating the night before the Larger battle..Not sure.Another thing I'm curious about,was this scenario an Advance or Attack?..Maybe I was supposed to exit the Map? Sometimes I dont read the briefings thorougly.And I mentioned a long strip of green at the end of the board.And the only other time I saw this was during the Crossroads scenario and that was a German Advance and Exit for points scenario..Its a cool scenario,but I dont know if u can win as the Germans in this one..But then again that would deem it historically accurate.If u play it make sure u use Fog Of War..I played it without and it spoils it somewhat.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GeoffP:

Has anyone tried this (large) scenario from gamesofwar.com? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes that Scenerio rocked!! I still go back and play it often realy enjoyed it.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

People who can smile when things go wrong

have found someone else to blame.

[Guest mch]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Geoff, I remember that as well,allied armor.There is none in this rendition.I believe the designer of this scenario was creating the night before the Larger battle..Not sure.Another thing I'm curious about,was this scenario an Advance or Attack?..Maybe I was supposed to exit the Map? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.My scen. covers the night of 18-19th

Dec,wich was the "opening ceremony" of the

battle before Bütgenbach.The action was actually a heavily armored probe.

Also,there is an exit zone.Exiting units

gives ALOT of points to the Germans,but I've

found that it's an appreciable amount of

difficulty to do so

P.S.:If you guys would like to read my main source for this scen,namely Cole's AC:BOB:

USAIWWII:ETO, I believe it is on-line at CMH's web site.There is a link from battlefront's resource page..or search for

Cole,Battle of the Bulge,etc.It's a fascinating read!

[This message has been edited by mch (edited 08-29-2000).]

[Panzer Man]

Ahhh,,,I see said the blind man...Thats what all those Green lights are..LOL...I doubt I would have made it there..I was close,If I knew that I would have tried to exit my tanks,but the infantrys morale was so low there was no way they would make it..I would try another method next time..Also, If you played the "crossroads" scenario (which is an exit/advance scenario)There are no victory flags,,I believe the whole object of the Advance /exit deal is to either get points to exit or lose points if u fail..Not sure ,just starting to design scenarios now..