On Engineers, Sappers and Pioneers etc

[Dandelion]

After all these years I still haven't figured it out.

In the UK/CW armies, and in the US Army (presumably they will differ), what were the correct WWII terms for;

a) The infantry with some engineer training used in assault tasks, often including flamethrowers?

The qualified engineers used for fieldworks within the scope of a combat enviroment (e.g. building a pontoon bridge under fire).

c) The engineers used for non-combat tasks.

If indeed these were different types of units, found at different echelons.

I'll trade this info for an endless monologue on German engineers if you wish.

Cheers

Dandelion

[Andreas]

Will the monologue contain something on Eisenbahnbaubatallione? Or will it be restricted to Strassenbaubatallione? In which case I would not be interested.

All the best

Andreas

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

After all these years I still haven't figured it out.

A bit slow, aren't you?

In the UK/CW armies, and in the US Army (presumably they will differ), what were the correct WWII terms for;

In the USA,

a) The infantry with some engineer training used in assault tasks, often including flamethrowers?

Infantry. Or, in the Pacific, sometimes Marines. I don't think there was any special term applied to these. In the case of the USA, they probably received their assault training in theater right before going into battle. Surviving members usually quickly reverted into doing standard infantry stuff.

The qualified engineers used for fieldworks within the scope of a combat enviroment (e.g. building a pontoon bridge under fire).

Combat Engineers. They were also responsible for clearing mines and blowing things up. They were also quite capable of fighting as normal infantry as was demonstrated in the Ardennes.

c) The engineers used for non-combat tasks.

Construction Engineers. Note that there were also Airfield Engineers whose more or less exclusive job it was to prepare and maintain airfields as the front advanced.

If indeed these were different types of units, found at different echelons.

The combat engineers were usually organized into battalions that were an integral part of each division, but could also be organized into regiments and brigades that were usually assigned on an ad hoc basis wherever they were needed within the theater, subordinated to armies or even corps.

Construction Engineers could be battalions or brigades and again were usually a theater asset. Airfield Engineers were (I think; not too certain on this point) usually battalions but might have been companies or some other organization. They were an integral part of USAAF and would have been subordinated to a numbered air force, thus might also be considered a theater asset too.

I have not come across a single book that covers all of this (never looked, really), but have picked it up in bits and pieces from various texts. I'd be willing to bet that the CMH has one or more books, probably online, that cover this in all the detail you'd want.

PS: I forgot to mention Beach Engineers. As you might suspect, these were highly specialized units used in making amphibious assaults. Their organization and equipment, from what I can gather, was very much tailored to each specific landing. They would have been a theater asset, and I am not sure how long they would have been kept on the books as separate organizations once a particular job was done.

I'll trade this info for an endless monologue on German engineers if you wish.

No, no, that's quite all right. I have a book on German combat engineers that tells me all I wish to know on that subject.

:eek:

Michael

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

After all these years I still haven't figured it out.

That's because it's one of those things you're just supposed to know, so it doesn't need writing down. How anyone is supposed to know it when it is never written down, I don't know, but I expect that that is also one of those things you are just supposed to know.

I've no idea what weirdness the US Army indluges in, but the current UK weirdness I established to my own satisfaction recently, and I doubt it was any different in WW2.

Originally posted by Dandelion:

In the UK/CW armies, and in the US Army (presumably they will differ), what were the correct WWII terms for;

a) The infantry with some engineer training used in assault tasks, often including flamethrowers?

Assault pioneers.

Some years the British Army thinks it should have an assault pioneer platoon in every infantry battalion. This year, it even thinks it should have one in the establishment without having to steal a platoon from one of the rifle companies. Next year, who knows?

The equivalent of the infantry's assault pioneer platoons are the support troops of reconnaissance and armoured car regiments, who are called "assault troopers", not "assault pioneers".

Originally posted by Dandelion:

The qualified engineers used for fieldworks within the scope of a combat enviroment (e.g. building a pontoon bridge under fire).

Royal Engineers, RE, engineers, Sappers, or in the old days of radio brevity codes, Holdfast. The RE themselves now distinguish between close support engineering (support to units) and general support engineering (support to formations), but I don't think they made such a distinction in WW2, when the divisional engineer regiment/battalion would have a number of field companies/squadrons to do the donkey work and a field park company/squadron to provide the stores and plant.

Likewise, there is currently a distinction between assault bridging and logistic bridging, which I imagine must have existed in WW2.

In WW2 there were also Assault Regiments RE, who would do combat engineering from under armour, using AVREs. The other funnies (Crocodiles, flails, Buffaloes) were specialist RAC troops from 79th Armoured Division rather than engineers, despite doing engineery-type tasks.

The RE also have, and had, responsibility for a bewildering array of technical tasks, including ferrying, watermanship, clearance diving, railway operation, water supply, bulk petrol handling, explosive ordnance disposal, and Lord knows what else, including until quite recently the Army's postal service. This probably explains why a fairly common way for the British Army to grow a new arm of service is to hive off a specialist branch of the Royal Engineers, as it did for example with the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Corps of Signals.

Originally posted by Dandelion:

c) The engineers used for non-combat tasks.

If indeed these were different types of units, found at different echelons.

The Royal Engineers do combat and general engineering with equal enthusiasm and competence.

The Pioneer Corps ("the chunkies") exists to provide skilled labour for construction tasks which should, in a tidy battle, not be near the front line (although they have basic infantry skills).

So, to sum up:

Royal Engineers can do anything;

Assault pioneers (infantry) and assault troopers (HCav/RAC/recce corps) can do some engineer tasks at the sharp end;

Pioneers can do construction tasks in the rear.

Originally posted by Dandelion:

I'll trade this info for an endless monologue on German engineers if you wish.

Yes please.

Although I've already seen the film "Pionere voran!".

All the best,

John.

[stoat]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dandelion:

The infantry with some engineer training used in assault tasks, often including flamethrowers?

Infantry. Or, in the Pacific, sometimes Marines. I don't think there was any special term applied to these. In the case of the USA, they probably received their assault training in theater right before going into battle. Surviving members usually quickly reverted into doing standard infantry stuff.

</font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

in WW2, when the divisional engineer regiment/battalion would have a number of field companies/squadrons to do the donkey work and a field park company/squadron to provide the stores and plant.

Typically one Fd Pk Coy per div, with one Fd Coy per bde (so, three in an inf div, or one fd sqn with the armd bde and one fd coy with the inf bde in an armd div). There was also a bridging pn (inf) or trp (armd) in each div, but right now I forget whether they were part of the Fd Pk Coy or an independant thingy. Independant, I think.

By-the-by, the largest working unit for the REs seems to have been the coy. The CRE (Commander, Royal Engineers) in each div had the equivalent of a CM-style-regt/bn under him, but they don't seem to have been organised as such, except along the barest admin lines.

The RE also have, and had, responsibility for a bewildering array of technical tasks, including ferrying, watermanship, clearance diving, railway operation, water supply, bulk petrol handling, explosive ordnance disposal, and Lord knows what else, ...

Recently I found a pdf on teh intarweb which listed all the RE coys involved in WWII (or, at least a bloody good stab at all of them) broken down by type, and giving an outline history for each. Naturally, I can't find it now but I do have it saved on another PC. Send me an email if you'd like a copy.

Jon

Edit: yay! Dandelions back

[ July 18, 2006, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[JonS]

From the afore mentioned pdf:

The Corps was smaller than during the First World War. However, the variety of units raised far surpassed that of any earlier period. The varied roles performed by RE squadrons and companies can be seen in the following list: Armoured Engineer Squadron, Armoured Corps Field Survey Squadron, Army Troops Company, Artizan Works Company, Armoured Engineer Squadron (ex Assault Squadron) and Armoured Engineer Park Squadron, Bomb Disposal Company, Construction Company, Dredging Company, Electrical and Mechanical Company, Field Camouflage Company, Field Company, Field Squadron, Field Company (Airborne), Field Park Company, Field Park Company (Airborne), Field Park Squadron, Forestry Company, Fortress Company, Inland Waterways Transport Heavy Workshop Company, Inland Waterways Transport Light Aid Workshop Company, Inland Waterways Operating Company, Map Supply Company, Mechanical Equipment Company, Mechanical Equipment (Transportation) Company, Mechanical Equipment Park Company, Movement Control Company, Parachute Squadron, Port Artizan Company, Port Construction and Repair Company, Port Maintenance Company, Port Operating Company, Quarrying Company, Railway Bridging Company, Railway Construction Company, Railway Operating Company, Railway Survey Company, Railway Workshop Company, Road Construction Company, Survey Company, Tunnelling Company, Transportation Stores Company, and Workshop and Park Company.

Sample entries:

ASSAULT/ARMOURED ENGINEERS HQ

1st Assault Brigade RE Formed in the UK 26 Nov 1943 by redesignation of HQ Engineer Assault Troops, and assigned 79th Armoured Division (taking over various RE units already assigned to that division).* HQ combined with 149th Assault Park Sqn RE 10 May 1944 and redesignated 1st Assault Brigade and Assault Park Sqn RE. 149th Assault Park Sqn RE separated and brigade redesignated 17 Jan 1945 as 1st Assault Brigade RE. Redesignated 23 Apr 1945 as 1st Armoured Engineer Brigade. Relieved from 79th Armoured Division and assigned to XXX Corps District 27 Jun 1945. Brigade HQ disbanded 30 Jul 1945 in Europe (all components had been relieved earlier that month).

5th, 6th and 42nd Assault Regiments RE assigned 26 Nov 1943 (all redesignated 23 Apr 1945 as armoured engineer regiments). Relieved 14, 24 and 12 Jul 1945, respectively.

557th Assault Training Establishment RE (ex assault squadron RE) assigned 8 Jan 1945; redesignated 24 Apr 1945 as 557th Armoured Engineer Training and Experimental Establishment; relieved 12 Jul 1945.

149th Assault Park Sqn RE reformed as separate unit 18 Jan 1945. Redesignated 23 Apr 1945 as 149th Armoured Engineer Park Sqn RE; relieved 12 Jul 1945.

87th Assault Dozer Sqn RE assigned 1 Mar 1945; relieved 22 Apr 1945.

* The brigade, as for other components of the division, adopted the formation sign of 79th Armoured Division (bull’s head with black and white markings, red and brown nostrils, and red-tipped horns, within a narrow black border on an inverted yellow triangle). This would survive in the post-war years as a sign for assault engineers, even though not always worn on the uniform. HQ Engineer Assault Troops was probably formed May or Jun 1943.

[snips]

5th Armoured Engineer Regt 5th GHQ Troops RE assigned 27 Apr 1943 to 79th Armoured Division. Redesignated 6 May 1943 as 5th Assault Troops RE. Redesignated 26 Oct 1943 as 5th Assault Regt RE. Relieved 26 Nov 1943 from 79th Armoured Division and assigned 1st Assault Brigade RE. Redesignated 22 Apr 1945 as 5th Armoured Engr Regt (and brigade redesignated 23 Apr 1945 as 1st Armoured Engr Brigade). Relieved 14 Jul 1945. Disbanded Sep 1945+.

Formed with 77th, 79th and 80th Field Coys RE, which were converted to assault squadrons RE with the same number. 26th Field Coy RE assigned Oct 1943 and also converted as assault squadron RE.

80th Assault Sqn RE converted to Terrapins [british version of DUKW amphibious truck] Nov 1944 and operated apart from regiment.

[snips]

77th Assault Sqn RE Formed ca. Apr 1943 by conversion of 77th Field Coy RE, part of 5th GHQ Troops RE (that unit redesignated 6 Jun 1943 as 5th Assault Tps RE and 26 Nov 1943 as 5th Assault Regt RE). Redesignated 22 Apr 1945 as 77th Armoured Engr Sqn RE (and regiment redesignated 5th Armoured Engr Regt). Converted from AVRE's to LVTs Aug 1944. May have converted back to AVREs Mar 1945. Disbanded Sep 1945+.