Beret colour of the 1943 Fallschirmjaeger in Sicily ?

[HawkerT]

Hallo fellow CM'ers!

A question or two for the uniform grogs and other such knowledgeable entities.

While researching the fighting involved in the British push through Carlentini/Lentini and into the plain of Catania I seem to have gotten the notion that the German paratroopers owned a green beret.

To get some certainty I have tried going through the sources again and tried various searches on the net, but darned if I can find any such information.

So here are the questions:

1) Was it only the British "Red Devils" that owned a beret or did their German pendant also own one?

2) If so then what colour?

3) Have I watched one to many movie or did the "Red Devils" really wear their beret in battle? (very generalized ... I know!)

4) Did the Fallschirmjaeger wear it into battle (if they owned one)

5) Did the Italian Paracadutisti also present in the area own a beret? If so then what colour?

Any answers are much appreciated and links with drawings, photos etc. a delightful bonus.

Respectfully and all the best

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by HawkerT:

Hallo fellow CM'ers!

A question or two for the uniform grogs and other such knowledgeable entities.

While researching the fighting involved in the British push through Carlentini/Lentini and into the plain of Catania I seem to have gotten the notion that the German paratroopers owned a green beret.

Beret? No. They were called the Green Devils as I recall, but only in response to the British paras who were called Red Devils. The British wore maroon berets, in actual fact. The "green" reference may refer to the field grey of German uniforms, notably the jump smock, as the parachute troops normally wore field blue uniforms as part of the Luftwaffe.

To get some certainty I have tried going through the sources again and tried various searches on the net, but darned if I can find any such information.

So here are the questions:

1) Was it only the British "Red Devils" that owned a beret or did their German pendant also own one?

"pendant"? No, German troops did not wear berets, with the exception of armoured vehicle crews in the 1939-1941 period. A black beret was worn over a padded crash helmet; a field grey version appeared in 1940. After the invasion of Russia this unpopular headdress disappeared largely for good.

2) If so then what colour?

3) Have I watched one to many movie or did the "Red Devils" really wear their beret in battle? (very generalized ... I know!)

Yes.

4) Did the Fallschirmjaeger wear it into battle (if they owned one)

Steel helmets were rigorously worn in German units in combat. While the Russians felt is was "unmanly" to wear helmets in some cases, most Germans wore them as a matter of course - of course, their helmets were the most warlike looking of anyone's. Though I did interview a Panzer Lehr vet who hated his helmet, and showed me a picture of himself on the MG34, bareheaded - which he tried to do as often as was allowed, which apparently was not often.

[HawkerT]

Thank you very much Michael!

Definitely a case of me having read the term "Green Devils"

As to the word "Pendant" ... somehow that Danish-Latin word sneaked itself into my post! It means something like "counterpart".

Facinating how stuff like wearing a helmet could be deemed "unmanly" in the 1940'ies. I remember reading on this board that at some point in history (the exact time period eludes me ... but IIRK then as late as in the 19 Century) it was considered "unmanly" to lie down during an artillery barrage ... instead it was considered "manly" taking the barrage standing (in stout posture no doubt).

Thank you again Michael! Your always vigilant efforts on this board serves you credit!

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by HawkerT:

Facinating how stuff like wearing a helmet could be deemed "unmanly" in the 1940'ies.

As I recall, the Royal Marines wore berets in Korea, and I think some units in the Falklands also wore them in action. I'm sure there were other instances.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

[snips]As I recall, the Royal Marines wore berets in Korea, and I think some units in the Falklands also wore them in action. I'm sure there were other instances.

In the Falklands I don't think either the Royal Marine Commandos or the Parachute Regiment wore any headgear other than steel pots while they were actually being shot at. Both made a big thing of donning their berets before the last stretch into Stanley at the end of the fighting, though.

All the best,

John.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sirocco:

[snips]As I recall, the Royal Marines wore berets in Korea, and I think some units in the Falklands also wore them in action. I'm sure there were other instances.

In the Falklands I don't think either the Royal Marine Commandos or the Parachute Regiment wore any headgear other than steel pots while they were actually being shot at. Both made a big thing of donning their berets before the last stretch into Stanley at the end of the fighting, though.</font>

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

[snips]

I recall the story of the officer shot in the head during a night assault on a hill, the name of which doesn't come to mind at the moment. As I understand it he was wearing a beret at the time. It would be interesting to discover whether he was alone in that during the assault.

I suspect you are thinking of Robert Lawrence, a subaltern in the Scots Guards who received a severe head injury leading his platoon in the assault on Mount Tumbledown. I don't know what headdress he was wearing at the time, but a steel helmet would clearly have been a better choice than a beret under the circumstances.

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sirocco:

[snips]

I recall the story of the officer shot in the head during a night assault on a hill, the name of which doesn't come to mind at the moment. As I understand it he was wearing a beret at the time. It would be interesting to discover whether he was alone in that during the assault.

I suspect you are thinking of Robert Lawrence, a subaltern in the Scots Guards who received a severe head injury leading his platoon in the assault on Mount Tumbledown. I don't know what headdress he was wearing at the time, but a steel helmet would clearly have been a better choice than a beret under the circumstances.

All the best,

John. </font>

[junk2drive]

better story is how uk got the malvinas (sp?) in the first place

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The "green" reference may refer to the field grey of German uniforms, notably the jump smock, as the parachute troops normally wore field blue uniforms as part of the Luftwaffe.

I have to object there Michael. The paras actually wore fieldgrey pants in the field (and later a tropical version). I know they are often portrayed as wearing the bluegreys, but they didn't. I promise.

The reason was that it was the Army that developed the initial Para gear, including the jumpsuit with loose fitting pants and olivegreen cotton duck smock. And boots, cutaway helmet, you know the gear.

While changing to Luftwaffe uniforms in every other aspect after transfer, the paras kept the jumpsuit including the pants. They wore standard Army fieldgrey. Thus initially a rather handsome darkish tone, later to deteriorate quite noticably.

Notably not the stonegrey (Perlgrau) trousers worn by the army at that time. They used the fieldgrey that the Army used for the blouse. The paras also never shifted to mousegrey like the Army did.

This is a well publicised snapshot from Crete, displaying extremely well the palette of para uniform.

of course, their helmets were the most warlike looking of anyone's.

Interesting to find such consensus on that. To quote Stephen Bull on the development of the Stalhelm;

For good or ill, one of the most distinctive cultural icons and objects of villification of the 20th century had been born.

About the nicknames - I have never been entirely convinced they were actually in use. I never did see any contemporary German reference to red devils, nor devils in baggy pants, nor the Dutch black devils. I'm not sure when a German would ever spot a paratrooper in a red beret unless a POW. And as I recall it Ryan writes in his book something "'Red Devils', which the British thought that the Germans called them", didn't he? I feel hesitant about these nicks.

"Green Devils" is supposedly an American name for German Paras after the abortive Texan rivercrossing in Italy. By that time there is not much green about them, especially compared to US army palette, as most wore the tropical trousers and Flecktarn bonesacks. So I don't get it.

---

And the No.5

5) Did the Italian Paracadutisti also present in the area own a beret? If so then what colour?

- Yes they did. The beret was greygreen and had replaced the Bustina in Italian paratroop units by 1943. Looked like so much;

Cheerio

Dandelion

[HawkerT]

Thank you Dandelion, for the very enlightning information and beautiful pictures.

There is something snappy and fashion like about many of the Italian uniforms ... compared to the often more brute looking allied and German counterparts (which can of course be cool in it's own way).

All the best

Frans

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by HawkerT:

Thank you Dandelion, for the very enlightning information and beautiful pictures.

There is something snappy and fashion like about many of the Italian uniforms ... compared to the often more brute looking allied and German counterparts (which can of course be cool in it's own way).

All the best

Frans

I quite agree, the italians display a tendency of finding successful compromises between the practical and the casually elegant, if given a fair chance. And they tend to make the most of a photo opportunity, if given a chance, don't they

One can hardly imagine a British Sgt-Maj in this posture.

This character is from the Nembo division, unlike the fellow above who is from Folgore. There was a tropical version of the beret, same colour and shade as the Sahariana.

Cheers

Dandelion.

[Michael Dorosh]

Here are some quotes from Lawrence

I think Sergeant McDermot was the first to arrive. He took my beret off - headgear the British wore to distinguish them from the Argentinians in their steel helmets...

This is what happened:

I turned to Guardsman McEntaggart as we went along....Seconds later, it happened. I felt a blast in the back of my head that felt more as if I'd been hit by a train than by a bullet. It was a high-velocity bullet, in fact, travelling at a speed of around 3800 feet per second, and the air turbulence and shock wave travelling with it was what caused so much damage. I found this out later. At the time, all I knew was that my knees had gone and I collapsed, totally paralysed, on to the ground.

Still not seeing what good a steel helmet would have done, nor kevlar, for that matter.

Anyway, true to form, John will just ignore any post that hints he may have spoken out of turn. Since we won't be seeing him again in this thread, I must say, Dandelion, it is always a pleasure to see you bringing the straight into into the German threads. I humbly stand corrected, and as always, great info, thanks for sharing it.

But isn't Stone Grey "steingrau" rather than Perlgrau?

[JonS]

Get out of the wrong side of bed again Mike?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

Get out of the wrong side of bed again Mike?

No, just tired of his oh-so-superior posts, especially when he's pulling stuff out of his ass to try and make other people look stupid.

I should be the only one allowed to post like that.

I read your post in the GF, I don't know that the airfields and R/R lists I have - they are lengthy - would help, as I don't recognize most of the place names. I would recommend you get a copy of MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman via interlibrary loan, it is quite a good resource.

[Michael Dorosh]

Although come to think of it, I have been "off caffeine" for four days now. Got tired of the cycle of headaches and so cut out tea and Pepsi. No, it hasn't helped my disposition any, sunshine. :mad: :mad:

[JonS]

Apparently not. Try giving up oxygen too. That should help

FWIW, I find his posts humourous in an extremly dry and self-deprecating way. Also he's one of only handful of posters whose posts are worth reading more often than not.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

Apparently not. Try giving up oxygen too. That should help

FWIW, I find his posts humourous in an extremly dry and self-deprecating way. Also he's one of only handful of posters whose posts are worth reading more often than not.

Oh, I agree on all counts. Which is why it is always so sad that if anyone tries to follow up with him with a question, or to point out a fallacy, he will just ignore it as if he is beyond reproach. Always hated when JasonC did the same stunt. Haven't seen him in awhile, either, come to think of it.

Edited to add - although I've never seen any self-deprecation, perhaps we define the term differently. Or perceive it differently. Maybe it's in the accent; thank God Canadians don't have those.

[JonS]

Shouldn't that be "thank God Canadians don't have those, eh?"

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

Shouldn't that be "thank God Canadians don't have those, eh?"

I was tempted to go back and edit it, but somehow I knew someone would put it in, mate.

Cheers.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

But isn't Stone Grey "steingrau" rather than Perlgrau?

Yes, but it is a bit confusing.

The m36 Langhose (Kielhose) trousers are referred to as "Steingrau", "Neugrau" and "Perlgrau" depending on contemporary source. Most probably due to actual difference in shades of grey with various producers. Or simply faulty use of colour names. But it might also be confusion due to lack of proper standardisation of colours.

To increase confusion, German standard "Perlgrau" is the same colour as the UK standard "stonegrey", and vice versa, "pearlgrey" is the same shade as "Steingrau".

So I never know what word to use really.

I say like the Londoners do

y'no-wa'a'mean...

Cheerio

Dandlion

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Here are some quotes from Lawrence

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

I think Sergeant McDermot was the first to arrive. He took my beret off - headgear the British wore to distinguish them from the Argentinians in their steel helmets...

Now that's a good reason I hadn't considered; although the demented pursuer of hyptheticals might suggest that it would have been a good idea to have been mistaken for an Argentine during those moments in the Argentine rifleman's sight picture.

Even so, the account of the Tumbledown battle at http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/Tumbledown.htm

says that steel helmets were carried by 2SG to be worn in the final assault. It therefore seems that they, as well as the Paras and the Marines, considered steel pots the preferable headdress for an assault.

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

[QB]

This is what happened:

Still not seeing what good a steel helmet would have done, nor kevlar, for that matter.

</font>

According to the slideshow available at

www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/session2/cfinch.ppt

the muzzle energy of an FN FAL is 3200 Joules (Mr.Picky says there seems to be a typo about the initial velocity, which is 2,800 fps, not 3,800; 840 m/sec in SI units). It would be interesting to know what range the round was fired from, but 3200J would be touching.

From the same source, 770 Joules is the penetration energy of a "good steel helmet", whatever that means. That's practically a quarter of the 7.62mm NATO bullet's muzzle energy. Even without the possibility of a glancing blow slowing or deflecting the round still more, ISTM that a 25% discount is always worth having. I'm not at all sure of the physics here, and the remaining 2430J is doubtless still enough for a perforating wound, but if wounding power depends on rate of energy transfer, then it seems to me obvious that the same amount of energy dumped at a slower rate will be less damaging than a faster rate, all other things being equal. What the final difference will be I have no way of calculating other than that it will be less than 25%, but I suspect that if you're as close to death as Robert Lawrence was, any additional margin has got to be worth having.

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

The round didn't hit him where a helmet was likely to be, so your ballistic information is useless - it wouldn't have mattered. Unless the British were wearing helmets in 1982 that covered the "back of the head"?

It also wouldn't have saved him from an FN round aimed properly at the centre of mass from a British soldier mistaking him for an "argie" in the middle of the night - as it states in the book, they wore soft caps as an identification feature.

If you're not shot in the helmet at all, I would still argue that wearing the helmet didn't help you any.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The round didn't hit him where a helmet was likely to be, so your ballistic information is useless - it wouldn't have mattered. Unless the British were wearing helmets in 1982 that covered the "back of the head"?

[snips]

Well this is true. I thought I remembered that bits of beret had had to be picked out of the wound, but evidently not.

As I remember the steel pot, the bits of the head it covered at any given time could be highly indeterminate as it wobbled about. I always enjoyed seeing our best Bren team make a tactical move -- Tubby Driver, the company armourer, holding on to a mag box in one hand and the Bren in the other, legs going madly to keep up while being towed along by Mark "velcro stripes" Burchill, one hand dragging the gun and the other trying to hold his helmet in place...

All the best,

John.

[Guest Mike]

I was in the Territorials in NZ during the Falklands - our SOP then was to wear helments in stationary defence, and jungle caps (a la US in Vietnam) all other times.

the theory was that the US-style helmets we had had a nasty habit of slipping over your face if you were jumping around, running, throwing yourself to the ground, etc., making vision a little problematical.