Desert Mountains?

[Rick]

I'm just wondering if anyone else finds taking the desert mountains difficult?

I've played a few scenarios that required taking a mountain in the desert, and I've found it to be the most difficult thing that I've faced in any incarnation of CM. Taking a big hill in Italy isn't the easiest thing either, but easier than in the desert.

I think what I find difficult is the fact that you need the tanks for the firepower against entrenched infantry on the mountain, but they're not exactly that mobile on the mountain. Not to mention it seems to be more difficult for the tank's guns to get the range on the mountain side than on flat ground.

[Michael Emrys]

That might have something to do with why the Tunisian campaign was so long and bloody, don't you think?

Michael

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Rick:

I'm just wondering if anyone else finds taking the desert mountains difficult?

I've played a few scenarios that required taking a mountain in the desert, and I've found it to be the most difficult thing that I've faced in any incarnation of CM. Taking a big hill in Italy isn't the easiest thing either, but easier than in the desert.

I think what I find difficult is the fact that you need the tanks for the firepower against entrenched infantry on the mountain, but they're not exactly that mobile on the mountain. Not to mention it seems to be more difficult for the tank's guns to get the range on the mountain side than on flat ground.

Yes Rick, I find fighting in the mountains very tough. I am doing a scenario where the Italians are entrenched on three mountain tops in ITalian East Africa. The mountaintops are all over 10,500 feet and there is no armor support. Yes taking a mountaintop is about the hardest thing I have done in CMBO, CMBB and now CMAK. At the moment the scenario is still being tweaked but in my case I can tell you that you better have a lot of artillery if you want to take the Roof of the World.

Panther Commander

[Rick]

Funny that you mention artillery, because I think using my arty more effectively would've been the biggest thing that I could've done more effectively.

So, Tunisia was particularly bloody? I was unaware of that. I have read a little about the campaign in Cyreneica, but not the Tunisian campaign. The only thing I actually read about Tunisia was that the Churchill was well liked there because its slow speed was less important because all tanks are slow at climbing those hills.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Rick:

Funny that you mention artillery, because I think using my arty more effectively would've been the biggest thing that I could've done more effectively.

So, Tunisia was particularly bloody? I was unaware of that. I have read a little about the campaign in Cyreneica, but not the Tunisian campaign. The only thing I actually read about Tunisia was that the Churchill was well liked there because its slow speed was less important because all tanks are slow at climbing those hills.

You MUST read AN ARMY AT DAWN. Not only is it informative, but the writing style is very story-like and if you have any interest at all in the period, you won't be able to put it down. Lots of good stuff about the commanders on all sides, as well as the living and fighting conditions of the troops. Covers TORCH and Tunisia very well.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Rick:

So, Tunisia was particularly bloody?

Not compared to the Eastern Front or many other battles, but the Allies were hoping to snap it up without much of a fight. Instead, they got bogged down for six months and, as usual, lost more men and materiel than expected.

BTW, I think you and Panther Commander are right about the artillery (I haven't played a mountain battle in AK yet, so I can't say for sure, but it sounds right). Having lots of it and timing it to lift just before your guys reach the enemy positions should be the way to go. Might want to have at least half your points go to buying arty.

Michael

[xerxes]

I'd be very interested in your scenario Panther Commander, I like the East Africa theatre. Pls drop me a line when you've finished it if could.

thanks.

vmclz@swbell.net

[Rick]

Panzer Commander, so are you saying this battle takes place in the Ethiopian highlands? That should be very interesting, slightly less arid conditions there than the rest of the theatre.

I'll need to try much harder with my arty coordination.

[Mad Russian]

The scenario takes place in the Ethiopian mountains. The peaks are all in a row. They are Pyramid at 10,800 feet, Whalesback at 10,900 feet and Elephant at 11,200 feet. I call it Roof of the World. It was called Battle for Amba Alagi, it was named after the Amba Alagi pass, that was itself at around 10,000. To make matters even more interesting it was raining during the fighting. This was the last battle of the Italian Army in Ethiopia.

On 4 May 1941 the 29th Indian Infantry Brigade from 5th Indian Division stormed the three peaks. The following day they were involved in taking more peaks but my scenario concentrates on the Indian Brigade taking these three peaks all on the same day.

Fighting up the mountain, against a dug in enemy, has proven difficult to say the least. I have been having some balance difficulties. I'm not sure the scenario will ever be able to be played two player, because, who is going to sit and watch the Indians move up the mountain, without sending every Italian soldier you can get to that side of the fort?

At this moment it appears that a judicitious use of smoke and artillery fire is needed to secure the forts but since they are mutually supporting it is a very tough nut to crack.

Anyway, I'll put a notice here on the boards when I post it to The Proving Grounds.

Panther Commander

[Rick]

Wow, that does sound intriguing, but very difficult. My main interest is in wildlife and nature photography and the mountains of Ethiopia are well known to people with these interests because, they are so different than the surrounding countryside and that creates a place with very interesting wildlife. For instance, National Geographic recently published an article on the Gelada, which is a baboon like primate that lives in the Ethiopian highlands. One of the images from the article was one of the winners in the BBC Wildlife Photographer of the Year contest.

Point is I've read a great deal about the mountains of Ethiopia, just not connected to the war.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Rick:

Wow, that does sound intriguing, but very difficult. My main interest is in wildlife and nature photography and the mountains of Ethiopia are well known to people with these interests because, they are so different than the surrounding countryside and that creates a place with very interesting wildlife. For instance, National Geographic recently published an article on the Gelada, which is a baboon like primate that lives in the Ethiopian highlands. One of the images from the article was one of the winners in the BBC Wildlife Photographer of the Year contest.

Point is I've read a great deal about the mountains of Ethiopia, just not connected to the war.

Well, if you read my briefing you'll know about the mountains effects on the war. And the war in general as it pertains to the Ethiopian theater.

My General Briefings are very in depth followed by a battle briefing that brings you to the current situation.

Mountain fighting is very different that's for sure.

Panther Commander

[Rick]

Briefings are one of the most inconsistent elements in scenario design. I definitely prefer the more thorough ones.

I look forward to seeing the scenario. I'm sure that I'll lose if I play the attacker (being that my mountain performance has been so dismal so far), but I always enjoy a challenge.

[Ligur]

I've checked out a few desert mountain assaults, but really can't get into them. The terrain is incredibly hard to read (at least on my Radeon and flat screen), even with gridded tiles. The maps are often huge and very hard to take in. The maps I've seen appear like someone took a huge bucket of desert tiles and poured them in a pile to create a random jumble of small elevations and pits and then a "mountain" by smashing more tiles into one place. This could be realistic though Throw in some rocky terrain, some rough, some random scattered trees and a few battallions of pixeltruppen, playtest untill winnable vs AI. Mountain battle!

I don't think the purpose of CMAK is to spend 60 minutes just trying to understand the contours of the field :confused:

Then add the intense boredom of walking lots of infantry towards a distant elevation, not my cake at the moment. No disrespect to anyone who has designed such a battle of course, I just personally don't get a lot of fun out of it, I'm not saying the scenarios are poor. I'm sure there are a lot of players who enjoy this type of battle.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Ligur:

I've checked out a few desert mountain assaults, but really can't get into them. The terrain is incredibly hard to read (at least on my Radeon and flat screen), even with gridded tiles. The maps are often huge and very hard to take in. The maps I've seen appear like someone took a huge bucket of desert tiles and poured them in a pile to create a random jumble of small elevations and pits and then a "mountain" by smashing more tiles into one place. This could be realistic though Throw in some rocky terrain, some rough, some random scattered trees and a few battallions of pixeltruppen, playtest untill winnable vs AI. Mountain battle!

I don't think the purpose of CMAK is to spend 60 minutes just trying to understand the contours of the field :confused:

Then add the intense boredom of walking lots of infantry towards a distant elevation, not my cake at the moment. No disrespect to anyone who has designed such a battle of course, I just personally don't get a lot of fun out of it, I'm not saying the scenarios are poor. I'm sure there are a lot of players who enjoy this type of battle.

Well the type battle you describe puts me to sleep no matter where it is fought. I have my scenarios generally in combat by turn three. In my Roof of the World scenario you can assault on turn one if you like. I use about three turns of artillery fire on the forts first but that is optional. I don't think you can win without it but I'm only the designer and scenarios take a life of their own once they are released. For me most of the mountain is there for effect.

What I want is the assualt. Not a walk up the terrain trying to hug the earth. At least not in Roof of the World. So in that regards it is like most other assault scenarios it just happens to take place on mountains over 10,000 feet high.

It is getting very close to playtest.

Panther Commander