Vorausabteilungen

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[simovitch]

AdamL,

In the Ardennes Offensive yes, most of the VGD's had established a VA from any organic mobile units they could scratch together, including towed guns and bicycle mounted Füsiliers. There was no set OOB or KstN for the VA.

Sometimes, like with KG Kunkel (26 VGD's VA) they would get some armored cars from a Pz Division (in this case the 2. Pz) or even a battery of towed Corps Artillery or werfers. But they were for the most part built around their own organic semi-motorized PzJg Bn.

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[JasonC]

Adam,

You may already know this, but the advanced detachment of the 2nd Panzer division you describe was actually an exploitation force and did not lead the way in battle, in practice. Only after the penetration was achieved did it get "point".

2nd Panzer attacked behind a VG infantry division, which spent the first day securing a river crossing and opening roads through several villages held by US infantry. It created an infantry heavy KG to support this portion of the fight, not based on the "forward detachment" you describe, but instead based on a motorized Pz Gdr regiment of 2 battalions, plus the motorized 2/3rds of the divisional pioneer battalion.

Their mission was to support the VG, maneuvering off road and operating on the far side of a river still being bridged. In the case of the pioneers, they also had the jobs of actually finishing the bridge, clearing obstacles and mines, and improving the primitive roads. While they rapidly had a footbridge across, one that would take 45 ton Panthers was another matter entirely and took them essentially the whole first day. The VG and panzer grenadiers, fighting dismounted, meanwhile tried to clear the roads etc.

In all of this daylight fighting on the first day, the defending US forces had superiority in armor at the front line. The heavier German vehicles are stacked up along the inadequate and narrow roads waiting to cross into an expanding bridgehead on the far side.

That changes after dark on the first day, with several German armored KG striving to penetrate the American positions during the night. The "advanced detachment" is not the only one of these, however. A second, similar in overall composition, was formed around the divisional recon battalion, supported by the Pz IVs of the Panzer battalion. Which were understrength, a total of about 2 full strength panzer companies or a little under 30 full AFVs.

Which is what the "advance detachment" you describe has, in the way of full AFVs, numerically speaking. It is heavier, though, with half of them being Panthers and the other half being Jadgpanzers. In both cases there is also an entire battalion of light armor, which at this stage of the war is a numerically very large column.

Your "advanced detachment" would have around 45 troop carrying halftracks and an approximately equal number of armed halftracks of various kinds. The latter split among 251/9s, 251/2s, 251/10s leading platoons, and 251/16s in the heavy weapons and engineer formations. So there are 3 pieces of light armor per full AFV. The artillery is trucked and along with staff and supply might be as much again of soft skinned vehicles.

The recon based force is comparable in size, being lighter only by the lack of the armored pioneer company, and Pz IVs instead of better armor. The recon group is the one that actually tangled with the main US rear guard in the area, around the river crossing at Clerf.

Meanwhile, the bulk of the Panthers and the last motorized panzer grenadier battalion were not yet seriously engaged, acting as "payload" and reserve, respectively, behind the armored infantry probing groups - which were themselves exploiters behind the (reinforced) leg infantry swarm charged with the initial breakthrough.

Now, once they were *through* the line, the "advanced detachment" took on its named role. The recon group could do the same, once it extricated itself from its fight with the US road blocking forces. The mission of either is the same - to run west down the road net finding routes for the rest of the division to follow.

Understand that a force with around 150 vehicles traveling on a single unimproved road is going to stretch for several miles. If they encounter roadblocks they might send side detachments down other branches or otherwise try to find their way around, but basically the KG is meant to operate as a single column, and will return to that formation (with its own blocks out laterally, perhaps, to hold open routes for following forces, temporarily - though even that seems to have occasionally been lacking during the Bulge fighting).

In CM terms, the business end of either KG would show up as a company of armor supported by a company of armored infantry plus a platoon of armored pioneers, with 105mm, 81mm, and 75mm support (1-2 of each as FOs), plus modest numbers of on map SP in the latter two calibers, or Grilles. The KG itself can hit with that sort of power twice, while having a reserve as well (scouting or holding the aforemention flanks like as not, etc).

The assumption is that anything less than a full battle line can't withstand that along one road for more than half an hour or so, so light roadblocks will simply be blown through, allowing the whole formation to continue to advance. The division is capable of scouting out two parallel routes in such "recon in force" fashion, simultaneously, and the "payload" bulk of the Panther battalion, plus the trucked infantry (recovered from its first day role) and artillery, following that. Those keep going as long as either recon group finds a path west, and stop to deploy and seriously fight only if both light armor forces are blocked.

[ May 02, 2007, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

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[JasonC]

Finding routes through a whole road net, more like. It isn't a single linear route, it is a branching dendritic system and the goal is to find the path of least resistence through that "net".

Yes the tanks are essential for it, but not all that many are needed. I mean the division had something like 130 full AFVs (a little under 60 Panthers, 45 Jagds, and a little under 30 Panzer IVs). Its two advanced guards had about 30 each them, or roughly a quarter of the total available armor each, half overall.

What they had virtually all of was the division's light armor and armored infantry.

See, they need enough tanks to be able to have tanks on "point" along any given route they are trying to advance along. But they need to explore and "stopper" a lot more routes than that. They are picking their way forward at each fork in the road net trying to find the least defended and most passable (in automotive and obstacle terms) route west.

Since the terrain is lousy - muddy unimproved roads through heavy forest with high relief and numerous water crossings and other defiles - it is essential that somebody can get out and make a turning movement off road if or when each little roadblock is encountered. As well as having the threat of a few full AFVs firing down the road itself.

The whole thing also can't be forced to stop by the lightest harassing artillery barrage, so unarmored transport would not be the way to go. Since they need to move fast, all off road, leg infantry also would not be the way to go - though that *was* what they used to make the initial breakthrough.

As for artillery support, the KGs each bring along a towed artillery battalion, so if they do hit something serious they can shell it. But probably while masking it with some of the armored infantry and trying to go around. The armored panzergrenadiers also have large numbers of supporting heavy weapons on light armor, that can be used direct or indirect - 81mm mortar halftracks, 75mm howitzer halftracks, a few 150mm sIG on Grille chassis. So they will not lack means to toss in shells indirect, if they need it.

The basic mission remains to find a least defended road by checking them all - and then to drive 100+ armored vehicles over the most promising, and push as far as possible repeating the procedure. That many can push a long way while still checking every split in the road net and holding open every route gained.

[ May 05, 2007, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

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[JasonC]

Err, it was 2nd Panzer, not 2nd SS. Heer.

KGs are formed around the major subunits of the division, obviously based on what is available. Every major unit gets some role in the overall plan, and they are tasked for that plan.

The main body was built around the Panther battalion of the panzer regiment, with 46 Panthers. The SP arty battalion (18 armored vehicles, some of them ammo carriers) went with that main body, along with a single pioneer company (10th company of one of the Pz Gdr regiments) to help with roads and such. There were around 40 halftracks for the pioneers and the various staff and command groups. So that was 100 armored vehicles.

The 304 Pz Gdr regiment, trucked, was initally used in a dismounted infantry-heavy KG along with the motorized portions of the divisional pioneer battalion. They were supposed to reform and follow the main body once through - their regimental staff and such was with the main body.

The other Pz Gdr regiment was split, with the mech battalion forming the basis of KG Gutmann. It had nearly 100 halftracks, including 8 each of 75mm and 81mm, plus its Panther company and Pz Jgr company. (Which on further investigation seems to have had StuGs rather than Jagds, incidentally).

The recce battalion was the other light armor group. It was followed by the second large armor formation, based on the Pz IV battalion of the panzer regiment, which was filled out with additional SP guns - again apparently StuG rather than Jadgs. The 2nd (motorized) battalion of Pz Gdr Rgt 3 was also with that (trailing, armored) part, along with a dozen pieces of SP Flak.

Organizationally the recce battalion and Panzer IV battalion were 2 different named KGs. But in practice they were mixed, with Panzer IVs right up with the recce.

As for how close, in the case of the recce and Pz IV battalion the tail of one column would run right up to the nose of the previous, if not further. In the case of the infantry dismounts, they might have been left up to 20 miles behind the foremost fighting by the second day, but then would readily catch up over cleared roads, once reorganized and rested etc.

The advanced detachment is going to push as far west as it can as fast as it can, not waiting for anybody behind. The main body has to negotiate a few bridge crossings that are tricky for 45 tonners (one at a time and careful) and then manage the poor roads etc. In practice they would "concertina" with the "point". The point KG would itself sometimes stretch 2-3 miles and sometimes twice that.

How many roads? Only a couple of major ones early. How far are we talking, though? In the end they drive clear to Celles, oozing around held Bastogne and staying south of the St. Vith area still holding out to the north etc. The main road 2nd Panzer took through Clerf was cleared by the recce and Panzer IV group, not KG Gutmann.

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[JasonC]

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=clervaux,+belgium&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.001301,66.621094&ie=UTF8&ll=50.061216,6.047287&spn=0.063476,0.130119&z=13&om=1

Try zooming, then pan. The small secondary roads don't show up on a map of that scale, but they are there.

[simovitch]

Originally posted by AdamL:

Are the Jagds being thought of as an anti-tank reserve of some kind? I'm just curious why they would put the StuGs up front rather than the Jagds, given the advantages of the later.

Did Gutmann go to Munschausen?

AdamL,

The 2. Pz had few, if any JgPz IV's on 16 Dec. Most of the PzJg Bn was comprised of StuG's, as was half the II Bn of the panzer Regiment. So it was more out of necessity than tactical doctrine.

Gutmann advanced through Clervuax. Elements of Pz Lehr advanced through Munschausen.