Loadsa FTs

[Mark Gallear]

That's MY website - and where does it say they didn't have WASPs? The only mention of the WASP is where it asks "which weapons did your unit use in battle", and WASP was pencilled in by the officer making the return.

You had me confussed as the other equipment on the form is shown underlined - which your form says the unit used but the wasp is not.

This evidence suggests Wasps in Italy long before April 1945, unless thse were just training vehicles?

Not sure exactly what a weasel is - is it a US made Ambhibious Jeep. Sherman DD and Buffalos called Fantails were used in Italy but are not in the list - don't think the System allows amphibious assaults.

[MDA]

The weasel in all its glory.

Linked from Battlefront.

http://www.m29cweasel.org/

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

(Ok you say TOE then! I can learn and improve!)

You're not quite there yet. It's TO&E. Notice the ampersand in there between the O and the E? It may seem like nitpicking, but it is by such clues that we know what we are each talking about and not something else.

Michael

[JonS]

Mark:

Is this [23rd NZ BN quotes] in NW Europe or Italy? ... JonS is correct for NW Europe but Wasps do not apppear in all units and seem to appear singly in the Support Company.

Gah! It's like pulling teeth!

Do a bit more research, and find out which Division 23rd NZ Bn was in (that shouldn't take too long). Then extend that research a bit further, and find out where that division was active in the period under discussion. Then apologise the Michael Dorosh and BFC.

Regards

JonS

P.S. Here's a hint.

[Mark Gallear]

Ok then JonS has Quoted me humiliated! A single Wasp in New Zealand Battalion Carrier platoons from December 1944 then.

I apologize unreservedly to JonS and Michael Dorosh for doubting them. Also to Michael who is slowly improving my use of the phrase TO&E, hopefully these posts will help the TO&E lists in CMAK as well.

Very good site on the New Zealand Army. Read the article it talks about converted Croc flamethrowers at this date, and Churchill’s crocs are not converted but made that way?

The date of the action with Churchill Crocs is at the end of April 1945. (I think the game has an introductory date of March 1945 for the Croc.) 2 RTR has a wide range of engineer Chuchills AVRES with fascines and bridge laying version, Kangaroos and Wasps at this fate but no mention of the Croc.

So what is the consensus of opinion do British/Canadian/Polish Battalions or Heavy Weapons Companies have Wasps and if so from when?

When do Crocs arrive and which unit has them?

I noticed a big change in the New Zealand Structure for Jan 1944 with a lot of mechanised and support units been turned into infantry. Vickers companies appear to be in the infantry battalion as well. Looks like the structure would be different from other nations units?

[ January 22, 2004, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Michael Dorosh]

I am actually in agreement with Mark re: Canadian use of the WASP in Italy. From the stuff I cited, at least one of the 15 rifle battalions in theatre (9 in 1st CID and 6 in 5th CAD) didn't even see a WASP until November 1944, and then never actually used them in combat until they moved to Holland in April 1945.

I'll see if the other regimental histories mention them.

Jon is still correct that they were kits issued to existing carrier platoons; so BFC may be entirely correct in making them available, as historically they might have been.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

US Army Intelligence document on the Organization of the British Army saying Wasps held in the MG company.

www.battlefront.co.nz/documents/intel-british.pdf

Sweet jeepers! It gets worse - that site is nothing to do with the US Army intel! It's a country briefing from a set of minatures rules!*

As for your snide comments above ... what can I say. You have been told repeatedly across several threads that you were wrong, had it explained why, given documentation and references to show why you are wrong. But yet you still seem to think they didn't exist, or there weren't enough of them, or the colonials weren't good enough to have them, or they never got to Italy, etc etc. You have earned your humiliation, if that's how you want to view it.

The extracts I posted on the previous page were just the barest minimum to show that NZ Bns did in fact have their own Wasps. If you want to discuss numbers, dates, context, usage, or any of a number of other issues, you are going to have to read way more than those three snippets.

Oh, BTW, there is a good reason why there is no (or not much) mention of the use of Wasps - or Crocs - in Italy between December 44 and April 45. Can you think what it is? (Same hint as before applies)

Regards

JonS

* Rules are for Flames of War and are quite a good set as these things go, but hardly definitive.

[ January 22, 2004, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Dorosh]

I would presume the winter season put a stalemate on operations; it certainly did in 1943-44. Which is why it is not surprising the Seaforths may not have used them between Nov 44 and Goldflake.

I still want to track down more solid info, though. They definitely were not an RE weapon, though, nor a divisional asset, but a battalion asset. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

I think someone cited wargames miniatures rules (was that you also, Mark?) claiming the Canadians in Sicily used Churchill tanks, which was not the case.

What does surprise is the relative paucity of WASPs before Nov 44, if that was the case. However, the first big use of them in NW Europe, off the top of my head, was the Leopold Canal crossings. I believe Henk Stoffer did a CMBO scenario about that one (it was also featured in the SL Rogue Scenario 200 pack). So perhaps late October/November 1944 should be the start date in any event.

I've never checked the CM editor (or the excel spreadsheets that are floating around) - what dates are the WASP available? Perhaps there isn't even a problem?

[ January 22, 2004, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Mark Gallear]

I am starting to feel as if my teeth are being pulled! (There is this TV advert in the UK where some clown phones up an insurance company and goes quote me happy!) Yep, I agree you cannot just go by one snippet of information in one book or source - however that is usually all you will ever get.)

I am confused if your history article says Churchill Crocs in Dec 1944 and again in April 1945, why not in between then! (Does this situation hold for the Wasps as well then.) Not had a chance to go though the history of the other New Zealand units on that site.

Do not remember insulting the colonies and do remember saying I don't have a clue what the Canadian Army got upto. I also remember after Grog Dorosh told me off for putting ? after things I was not sure of - telling him that I wasn't that arrogant.

As for what went on in Italy it is very different from organizations on NW Europe, appears that changes and new equipment generally appeared their some time after. Unfortunately, most of my regimental histories are on the Desert war and then go to NW Europe. There can be startling differences between battalion/Squadron organizations between regiments in the British Army, so why not between Canadian/New Zealand/ Australian and Polish units as well.

When I went through my list of British Army stuff on the first bugs post - I new many things were wrong by just looking but as I started to check I found many discrepancies. I did it for fun and to make the game better - does that make me a bad person or stupid in some way.

So, if you have any more info on NZ or other Empire use of flamethrowers in Italy, why not come clean - as you have seen from my list there are that many good sites out there. Although sometimes you do find a gem.

From the site given by Jons and Mr Dorosh - I am now fairly homed in on a Nov 1944 date for the introduction of British Man pack flamethrowers to Empire forces in Italy!

Sorry about the confusion on the game site - I went with the description from goggle. This ruleset shows a platoon of six with HQ standard Uni carrier. I did put the other game sites with oobs down as such. (I think looking at what other Wargame rules have done in the past helps as alarm bells should go off if you go and do something different base on some scrap of info.)

So you are looking at these sites then (glad you are finding ammo to use against me!) I don't think I have ever tried to mislead anybody as to where my info was coming from, omitted info to suit my argument or pulled the line "BFC has sources you don't have access too."

Yes, there is a problem with the Wasp in the list as it appears in the Battalion structure before you can buy them separately. As you get loads in the Battalion structure not just one – this appears to be from some theoretical oob not what actually happened – if the difference between the theoretical and actual structure is very great – I think we should try for the actual. Otherwise, we might as well have 20mm Flak guns in the Battalion structure even though that never happened. It is not limited to NZ units but everybody else as well – not sure, I am willing to believe Battlefront word on that. Although I’m not saying for sure that other nations infantry battalions/heavy weapons companies did not have them.

CMAK Introduction Dates

July 1940

Man pack Flamethrowers are available

According to Chris Bishop Ed WWII: The Directory of Weapons - Flamethrower Portable No 2 Mk I was produced around mid 1942 - it proved unreliable and was withdrawn and used only for training from mid -1943 onwards. (This does not mean they were necesaarily widely used in he Desert War.) The MK II was introduced into service in June 1944. (As I said above gleaned a date of around Nov 1944 for Italy.)

"However, the British Army was never really enthusiastic regarding portable flamethrowers and decided that not many would be required. Production of the MK II ended as early as July 1944, after 7,500 were made."

Dec 1944

The Infantry battalion 1944 has the Wasps as part of Battalion structure – assume this info came from JohnS and has rather more than he is happy with?

Feb 1945

Wasp Flamethrower now appears in support section and can be bought separately. This date may be correct but first date in use I could find was April 1945 for 2 RTR - where they are concentrated with other specialist equipment. (JohnS for New Zealanders has Dec 1944?) The April date for 2 RTR appears in Churchill's Desert Rats 2, Patrick Delaforce. (It is possible that other British units got the Wasp before this date but I cannot find any info.)

April 1945

Churchill VII Crocodile date appears correct as it appears in 12 RTR in 21 ATB for April 1945. (presumably 2 RTR never gets the Croc and uses the Wasp until wars end.)

This info comes from the site below

http://www.armourinfocus.co.uk/a22/index.htm

This link has an article by Shilto, which gives graphs of tanks in use per month by type in Italian campaign for 8th Army Tank - which had the Churchill. As the info was complied from regimental records, I think it is very solid and has got to cast some doubt on reports of Churchill Crocs before this date.

The CMAK dates for Wasps and Crocs are not that bad - compared with non-existant British Lees and Grants that appear after their time as uber tanks has passed!

Yes, it was me who put a question mark on Canadian Churchill in Sicily – based on book by Donald Featherstone which is 90% history and 10% wargame rules as I pointed out before he was actually there which is more than most historians can say. I did look on the official Canadian history site and found a document saying they converted from Churchills to Rams before the battle - I don't think they had Rams in Sicily!

I used the account from his book of a tank driver in his tank regiment to create the Steamroller Farm scenario on my site!

[ January 23, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]