Sergei Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Originally posted by Dandelion: Define "German".The bad guys. When you shoot them, they shout something like "Ach, mein Kopf! Mein Kopf!!!" I don't mean that all Germans would be the same, though. Some Germans are Protestants. Then some of them are Catholic Pope-worshipping pagans who shall burn in Hell. More information: www.godhatesgermans.com 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Originally posted by Dandelion: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: dalem figures Stauffenberg was just a "Nazi"; can you corroborate that? No I can't. I don't see how that opinion can be shaped from what is known. Speaking politically convinced Nazi. I'm not saying he was all cuddly, and certainly not the person modern German media would have wanted him to have been. Someone the New Germany is in need of for legitimacy and inspiration. A modern German democrat. Au contraire. The Count of Stauffenberg did not express, as far as I know, any ideological conviction of any kind. He regarded himself as apolitical, but of course he wasn't. All conservatives always tell themselves they are apolitical simply because they don't want to change anything, as if that is not also political. He was a conservative aristocrat, with politically liberal views (German scale of reference) with leanings toward the Weimar establishment, if any. He was a patriot, meaning he had a sincere problem separating his individual identity from that of (the concept of) Germany. He felt shame on behalf of Germany, for what he saw in the Soviet Union. There are no individual acts and no individual responsibility in the views he expresses, except his own. He has the collective attitude typical of German aristocrats. Society as a body. I fail to see he was a convinced democrat. It was majority vote that had brought what he found to be vulgar mobs to power in Germany, and that had enabled the dictatorship of mediocracy in which he despaired. Socially he remained isolated within his own narrow caste. If he accepted democracy, it will have been as Churchill - a fellow aristocrat - accepted it, not an inch further (namely as the lesser of a number of evils). The Nazis were revolutionary. They paraded their disdain for Old Germany insofar as to despise aristocrats, privileges and social injustice (a profile much toned down after the Long Knives of course, but still present). I scarcely think any of that will have hit home in the heart of a Count. And he was very much a count, his real name was Claus Maria Schenck but he never dropped his title Graf von Stauffenberg at any point - like some other aristocrats serving the Nazis did. The Nazis despised education and academics, the Stauffenberg family were 100% academics. As for ideas of races - Stauffenberg might well have harboured them. All of Europe did, even the British caleld themselves "the island race" at this time. But Nazi? No, I can't see how I am to meander myself into such a conclusion. Tho I can sympathise with the problem of separating Nazis, patriots, chavinists, racists, reactionary and revanchiste. They share many common traits and express like opinions in like manners. Perhaps Dalem meant "Nazi" as in a person part of the establishment in Germany at the time, lending service to a criminal régime for ten years before reacting - and then only in the face of defeat. A successful takeover by the group around Stauffenberg need not have meant anything significant. It could have, but need not have. How do you size him up Michael? Regards Dandelion </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Originally posted by Sergei: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dandelion: Define "German".The bad guys. When you shoot them, they shout something like "Ach, mein Kopf! Mein Kopf!!!" I don't mean that all Germans would be the same, though. Some Germans are Protestants. Then some of them are Catholic Pope-worshipping pagans who shall burn in Hell.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Just in case you happen to be a humourless German who hasn't browsed the General Forum lately, I'll add this: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Being a member of the aristocracy, I can see the logic behind not calling him a Socialist, or a Worker, two of the main components of the National Socialist German Workers Party platform. I would tend to doubt that his views on the Jews have been recorded; I think perhaps this is what dalem may have been referring to. The German Army prided itself on being apolitical - Cooper discusses this, too. Of course, Keitel, Jodl et al rose to the top because they were political, but perhaps in a different sense of the word. However, most of what I know about Stauffenberg in particular....I learned from reading you post! I think dalem may just have had gas when he typed that. Huh? Well you were pretty quick on answering his specific position in the army, which he held only a few months at that, so you would have gotten away with calling yourself an expert on Stauffenberg there His views on jews are debated now and then. Mostly in the Süddeutsche. His family of course vehemently resents accusations of anti-semitism. But you know how it was. Anti-semitism was widespread and not regarded as extraordinary or socially damaging (unless of course you entered the Streicher level of bizarre hatred). Nor was it specifically attached to the Nazi movement. Mr Ford was no Nazi, still held the most grotesque hatred fopr jews. In Germany people would even voice their anti-semitism to jewish friends, excepting the present company. A very strange phenonema all of it. So I have no problem imagining Stauffenberg was an anti-semite, nor that he wasn't. Either way, Stauffenberg and his fellow plotters have been through a real meatgrinder in German postwar papers. The official view has always been he was a hero, a view not at all shared by the public. As late as the early 80s, a quarter of the population still regarded him as a traitor, and the assassination attempt as a military coup d'Etat of Latin Amrican type. Only in the 90s did views start to change (i.e. the population was changed, as oldtimers died) according to polls. So papers have been on and on about various accusations against himn and the others, ranging from secret Nazi sympathies to perverted forms of homosexuality and them betraying eachother et ceterrra - and conversely with virtual glorifications of the same people. They're still at it. Here is an article with an interview of his son, concerning the media treatment of Stauffenberg. Of course its in German. I've never understood if you read German Michael? You seem to be able to... It is with some trepidation that I ask this - what is the idiomatic meaning of somebody having gas? Interpreted literally, the expression feels drastic when used in a discussion on anti-semitism. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Originally posted by Sergei: Just in case you happen to be a humourless German who hasn't browsed the General Forum lately, I'll add this: Ah, Germans are also defined by being in want of humour now are they? Don't worry Sergei, I've been reading your posts for... what is it now? Well far too long it is anyway. You enter the forum(s) in different moods, and sometimes I actually think you enter it unsober, but I think I've got the hang of you, or justabouts. You'd never shoot a German in the head just to hear his comment on it. Everyone knows all Finns carry knives, so you'd stick 'em instead. And that vile insult against Andreas just now - everyone knows that's how Finns are being friendly, you were telling us how much you like Andreas. For a forestfinn, you are surprisingly socially adept, with occasional displays of being talkative (that's the unsober part), and apart from an uncompromising hatred of Soviet celebrations of VE day, you generally get along with people - yet another unfinnish trait. Cheerio Dandelion PS. Sergei, just in case you're just another Finn with no humour, who haven't been around lately, here it is PPS. I'd worry more about Americans following that link than about Germans reading your post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 That is no insult directed towards Andreas that could possibly be vile enough. If he chooses to send me a fecking turn I may deign to revoke all or part of that statement. But I doubt it. 'to have gas' means 'to be in a bad or contrary mood' for no particular reason, and tending towards making unsupported statements based solely on the discomfort of gastro enteritis. Or thereabouts. For example: Stauffenburg wasn't an American, and more importantly was a German. Therefore he was a Nazi. QED. Regards JonS P.S. Did you get your copy of Fendicks book yet? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Originally posted by Dandelion: you were telling us how much you like AndreasAARGH!!! My eyes!!! I must pluck them off their sockets after reading that :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Ok you can just use that knife you'll inevitably be carrying and scrape them out. But before you do, have a look here and here. Now. I know they don't beat a rare photo of a fieldmodified Wasserschlepper, let alone a full frontal on a zimmerit plate, but obviously one will every now and then find reason to keep ones eyes just a few more years. Jon, no I haven't. He didn't have any retail copies left, all he had was the copies he got for himself from the print, we're talking two or three. Amicable fellow, he'd sell one to me nonetheless, but it really didn't feel good you know. I mean there is no meaningful money in it for him he's just doing it to be nice to me, and with so few copies left... its not right. So I left it there and figure I'll write him again this fall and see if he didn't print a new batch. And yes Carl, I am having a spell of bad conscience for hijacking the thread. Sorry. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Originally posted by Dandelion: Jon, no I haven't. He didn't have any retail copies left, all he had was the copies he got for himself from the print, we're talking two or three. Amicable fellow, he'd sell one to me nonetheless, but it really didn't feel good you know. I mean there is no meaningful money in it for him he's just doing it to be nice to me, and with so few copies left... its not right. So I left it there and figure I'll write him again this fall and see if he didn't print a new batch.Oh, that's too bad. Actually, no it isn't since it means that his book has been more successful than he probably thought it would be. I for one think that's terrific for him. Not so grand for you though. Hopefully he will get some more printed. In the meantime, a poor substitute can be found here. Regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Originally posted by Dandelion: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei: Just in case you happen to be a humourless German who hasn't browsed the General Forum lately, I'll add this: Ah, Germans are also defined by being in want of humour now are they? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Originally posted by Mike: Sadly, no. Otherwise he'd not have needed to use the adjective "humourless" to define the subset. Or he might've used the approved terminology and said "typically humourless Germans". ;)QUOTE] Ah but there you go, Sergei was actually telling us how much he likes Germans then, presuming only the best of us. Its a good thing there are over 80 000 000 Germans around to make him happy I guess. Jon - that substitute wasn't at all poor I think. The antipodeans are being absolutely examplary about publishing WWII information on the web. The participating nations (of WW2) might well cooperate to create a common database of this type. Now that we are all chums. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vyrdolak Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 Originally posted by flamingknives: Are those PzIV tracks under that thing? Looks like a converted Matilda to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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