Need info on Lorraine Campaign

[C46thVA]

Hey fellas

Im looking for info on the 17thhSS' combat ops during the Lorraine Campaign, more specifically, the last week of November and first two weeks of December 1944. To be even more specific Im very interested in the fight wich took place in the area of Habkirchen,Oder-Gailbach on the Blies river. I spent alot of time there in 94 and have been over the ground a hundred times. I have excellent maps of the area as well.

As you may have already figured out I want to do a scenario involving this fight. CM seems to be the vehicle to do it.

In case anyone is interested I also did alot of relic hunting there and found some really cool stuff.

JW

[DerBlitzer]

Maybe you know of these, but there's this link:

Lorraine Campaign

and there's also Hugh M. Cole's book from 1950, The Lorraine Campaign , available on a number of used book sites. Search for it using Bookfinder.com.

[Kingfish]

This might be of interest.

Edit: check out Chapter 9, the bottom of page 422.

[ November 01, 2006, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Kingfish ]

[DerBlitzer]

Well, hey, forget ordering the book, there it is online!

These Internets are a wonderful thing...

[JasonC]

The fight for Habkirchen took place on December 12-15, not in late November.

Immediately before that came the fight for the Sarre river crossing and for the town of Sarreguemines. That ran roughly from 8 December to 10 December.

The whole offensive started on 4 December at a prior position, along the Maderbach. That was broken in on 4 December and exploited to the Sarre by 6 December. Then a pause for troops to come up, and a new push on 8 December, which crossed the Sarre and began the fight for Sarreguemines. That took until nightfall on the 11th, when the forward units closed to the Blies river. The attack across the Blies came on 12 December.

Not one river, three. If you mean the last of them and the fight for Habkirchen proper, the time runs 12 December to 15 December.

The US unit engaged was the 35th Infantry division. In the early portions (4 December to 6 December) elements of CCA, 6th Armored also helped, but it was then withdrawn from action. (The 12th AD relieved it, but was used on a different portion of the frontage, where CCB of the 6th had been previously).

The German units engaged were the remains of 17th SS Pz Gdr and the remnant of the 11th Panzer division. Late in the Habkirchen fight they also got modest help from a small KG from 36th VG division, from its 165th regiment, estimated at 200 men.

The strength of these units before the battle is known and was very low compared to TOEs. 17th SS had 1700 infantry effectives and a total ration strength for 4500 at the start of the push on December 4th. 11th Panzer had 800 infantry effectives and initially about 20 AFVs, with ratio strength 3500. Corps level artillery was a single motorized 105mm battalion and a flak battalion with 12 88s and some 37mms.

The German divisional artillery was still effective, though not terribly numerous (3 guns per km of front) nor abundantly supplied (roughly 1/3rd the US average in rounds per day, and US surges doubled or tripled that on specific heavy days).

Just before the Habkirchen fight proper the 11th PD received 20 Panthers as replacements, and was ordered to use them defensively since Pz Gdr strength was minimal.

Other losses must be deducted from the above strengths for earlier passages in the fighting between 4 December and 12 December. Specifically, 11th PD delivered a counterattack on 8 December against 2nd battalion, 134 infantry, 35th ID, using about 15 tanks and a battalion of infantry (what was left of the 110th Pz Gdr regiment). It was broken by US artillery fire (9 battalions for 15 minutes). Similarly, 17th SS took losses at the Sarre river and in Sarreguemines.

The likely strength at the Blies is therefore on the order of 1200 from 17th SS, 400 from 11th PD, and later 200 from 36th VG, plus the 20 new Panthers and little else in the way of armor.

German artillery was important at the Blies because they held ground with excellent artillery observation. They overlooked the US side of the river to a depth of 6000 yards.

The basic logic of all of these fights was bridgehead fighting. The US snuck infantry across at night or at dawn, frequently catching the Germans unawares. Then they had to fight the Germans without armor support, only infantry and their organic weapons having crossed the river. The Germans defended in fortified locations especially towns or villages, and counterattacked with modest amounts of armor. The US met both with massive artillery fire from their side of the river. The Germans also tossed in their own shells with thicker targets and defensive stance and observation compensating somewhat for lesser weight of metal.

On the specifics of 12 December, 35th ID attacked that day with all 3 regiments abreast. The main effort was in the center at Habkirchen, by the 134th infantry regiment. It was basically light a battalion due to losses in the Sarreguemines fighting.

1st battalion of the 134th led, sending 2 companies plus an MG platoon from the heavy company across the river (60 feet wide and swollen by rain the night before - it had snowed 10 December but then thawed, ground was muddy, etc) using boats. They had to ferry across one company at a time and several boats were lost to the current. The crossed safely and surprised some of the defenders on the far bank.

They then fought for the Habkirchen proper. But they had little support and were quite exposed so far forward. Follow on forces were delayed by loss of boats and by blocked approach roads, interdiction by German arty on the crossing sites, etc. Engineers worked on a bridge but it took several days to complete.

In the meantime, the Germans counterattacked the modest force already across in Habkirchen itself. They fought house to house for it, receiving reinforcements from the remainder of their battalion and calling in artillery. They fell back on the bridgehead and received another company worth there, etc.

The fight on the far side continued for several days, with other regiments crossing up and downstream of the 134th providing some pressure release, but not much. The Germans focused on destroying the 134th bridgehead. They compressed it but never eliminated it, largely because of their low infantry strength and the power of US artillery. On the night of 14-15th December, US engineers completed bridges that allowed SP TDs and tanks to cross in force. As they entered the fighting they rapidly cleared Habkirchen and the Germans withdrew.

Factors about the units at this time. 11th PD was a crack outfit very badly depleted by losses. Weakened for some units, veteran to crack ratings, formations light elements e.g. company of HQ and 2 platoons, 1 with 2 squads etc.

17th SS was not a crack outfit. It got decent replacements at the westwall in September and a remnant cadre from those would still be around. But it had been regularly topped off with replacements who had not completed their training and with eastern Volksdeutch conscripts. Mixed regulars and greens, some of the regulars 25% fanatic, is a fair characterization of their spotty mix. The 200 from 36th VG were regular VG pattern infantry.

Support elements on map might include some 88 Flak, 37mm Flak, 105mm howitzers. Along with the usual 81mm mortars and HMGs of course. 105mm FO support but not too many FOs or shells. Occasional Panthers in 2s with 11th PD groups.

The US were regular to veteran infantry division forces. Abundant 105 and 155 FO support. No 4.2 inch mortars (weren't around), and probably not 81s either (very limited ammo etc). They'd have HMG platoons and 60mm mortars along with company weapons platoons and zooks etc. Only a few 57mm towed and usually on the wrong side of the river. Late in the fight, abundant M-10s and plain 75 Shermans, but not until the very end.

The Germans were heavily outnumbered overall, but the foremost US groups were much smaller than the total German force. The US problem is getting sufficient force forward. They are delayed by terrain and by shelling, don't want to mass under the latter, don't have strong AT weapons, etc.

I hope this helps.

[David I]

JasonC,

Just days/hours before the German everything or nothing battle of the Bulge attack. What was the weather like? Snow? Cold not snow?

DavidI

[C46thVA]

The weather was miserable, lots of rain, cold, windy, the Blies was well over its banks and running fast.

[C46thVA]

Jason,

Thanks for the info dump, do I owe you money for that or what??

Anyway, thanks to H.M.Coles "Lorraine Campaign" Im well aware of the actual date of the fight at Habkirchen, I just like to be thorough. None the less, that was very generous of you.

I think have enough info now to cobble together a scenario.

You have no idea how right you are when you say that the Germans had excellent observation into the American rear area. Ive stood on the bluffs on that side of the Blies and its impressive, I wonder though how much the weather conditions would have obscured the view. Not to mention the tremendous amount of incoming US steel. The ground there is so saturated with shell splinters that my metal detcector was almost useless. If Im not mistaken most of those Panthers you mentioned were knocked out by US artillery fire.

Over the course of my time in Baumholder I visited the area dozens of time. Even met several little old ladies who lived in the town at the time of the battle. They all lived in there basements while the fight raged overhead. Only a tiny handful of original buildings remain today, most were destroyed or too badly damaged.

Concerning german support weapons, the only thing I could add would be some 75mm infantry guns. I say this because I found loads of spent shell casings form them in one area.

Anyway, thanks again.

JW