Semi Newbie , Hopefully Non - Idiot Questions

[Troy Spiral]

This posts refers to

Demo Mission

Citadel Schwerpunkt

Playing as the Soviets

Hello,

First i want to thank many of you for the help in advance, as well as the general friendly posts i've read so far.

I've been researching the basic concepts of CM:BB (having played CM:BO demo quite a bit over the last 5 years or so)

I've read all of the CMBB text file and PDF files. As well as played through the tutorial senario several times.

I've searched exaustivly through the forums and found several threads that cover the mission im working on (although very breifly) and found one thread:

Post Your Citadel Schwerpunkt Scores:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000224

that covers it somewhat in-depth.

But i have tons of questions, some being more "general" questions , but most are senario specific.

If some veteran player could take some time and look at and/or play through:

Demo Mission

Citadel Schwerpunkt

I have some questions based on other suggestions that i've read.

1. Don't even THINK about using the default setup. All but about two of the AT guns are in bad positions, IMO. I'll leave it up to you to figure out which.

Could someone take some time and have a look at the Russian setup in this mission? It would be helpful to understand why they are -not- places well. For the most part (excpet for the SILLY placement of the HQ units waaaaaaaaay in the back) I dont see the setup as all that bad.

2. Site your AT guns with limited fields of fire so that you don't get the entire friggin' German Army opening up on the one that took the good shot it had.

I've tried this, albiet with only a slightly edited version of the defualt setup.. and what happens is.. sure your AT guns all get to start firing off at once. But that doesnt matter. The "whole german army" just starts firing at maybe 1 or 2 of the at gins first, busts them one at a time and they are all dead within , at max 2 turns. I assume , to get "overlaping arcs" you have to place them fairly close to one another, and they always seem to die -fast-. What am i doing wrong?

3. Plan on taking side shots with your AT guns, rear shots with your AT rifles, and no shots with your Maxims.

Side shots? At best i can get sort of "front-side" shots before the enemy tanks notice me. And the AT RIFLES seem worthless, Their range is to short. The guns notice me long before im able to get into anything even -close- to effective range (as listed on the troop info of the ATRs) Help?

3 Since you aren't going to be taking shots with your Maxims, use them to spot for the AT guns, so they know when they need to be ready to open up; keep the AT guns hiding for as long as possible.

Generally i dont understand the need for "special spotting" I dont even see what its needed for. Even when all my guys are HIDDEN they spot the tanks -LONG- before they are in rang, with no real "spotting" done on my part. What am i missing?

4 Use your tank hunter teams primarily for last-ditch defense of the objectives. Hope you don't need to use them. Alternatively, use them to protect the backside of an ATR crew or AT gun that is facing away from the front line - just be ready to lose both quickly.

See my ATR comments above, AT infantry have to short of a range to be useful as far as i can tell, they are always spotted before being able to be used effectively , even when i have them hiding. I must be doing something wrong i assume.

5. Use your tanks as a mobile reserve. Decide where the main fight is going to take place, and position them initially behind that area and out of sight - ideally, their initial position should be a decent one for an AT gun, so that NOT moving is a reasonable option. Despite what you may have heard about KVs, the KV-1S is a lighter version that can be penetrated frontally by Pz IVs with no problem (and don't count out the Pz III). Don't expect them to last long in a stand-up fight.

Pretty much every time , the german tanks kick my tanks asses. I keep the tanks hidden behind a hill, popup for a bit.. fire off a few shots (they almost always glance off or something) then eventually 3-4 german tanks spot me and im dead.

Maybe a general overview of what a good setup would be for my troops in this senario as well as some general things that veteran players think im probably doing wrong would be helpful.

I know this all takes a great deal of time to read through and answer (as well as play through if your not already familiar with the senario)

Much thanks in advance.

[ January 15, 2003, 04:14 AM: Message edited by: Troy Spiral ]

[DBaron]

I'm hardly an expert on AT gun emplacement, but I can tell you what I did for this mission. Maybe it will help some.

Spoilers below-

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I left the KV's where they were (down in that river bed hidden), moved up all my AT guns, Maxims, ATR's, and Tank Hunter teams to those three little patches of trees at the edge of the map, and divided the units and guns up pretty equally between the three spots, and hid them all. Then I waited, and waited, and waited, until the Germans were almost on top of me, then unloaded all at once. I also moved up the KV's. In about 5 minutes, I lost almost all the AT guns, ATR gun squads, and Maxim MG's, but I managed to knock out all but three or four Mk III's. The Tank hunter teams tried to close on the MK III's but got elimanated or routed, but they managed to distract the Mk III's long enough for my KV's and remaining AT gun to finish them off. In the end I think the Germans surrendered. The Tank Hunter teams do have a short range, but if the german tanks are buttoned up and shooting at something else, thier visibility is greatly decreased and it is possible to get in close with the Tank Hunter teams. I got one team in close enough that managed to pop a few molotov cocktails onto an immobilzed Mk III before they got spotted and gunned down.

It's totally gamey and cheesy, but it worked, so whatever. But it was also one of the wildest few turns I have seen in CMBB (at least it seemed to me back then).

Hope this helps, and if not, I'm sure someone else will come along and post some helpful hints.

[Cpt Kernow]

Spoiler

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Or

You can put guns/tanks on either side of the valley. Have them face lateraly across the vally.

When the nazi's come down into the valley you get nice side shots.

Get easy wins this way.

[ January 15, 2003, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: Cpt Kernow ]

[Tigrii]

Yeah, if you put a 45mm battery in the rocky at the end of the first valley, they get side/rear shots if you wait for the tanks to pass by. Also, putting the KVs in the sort of arm of the woods on the left so that they can only get out backwards is good, because they always get rear shots.

[Troy Spiral]

thanks for the tips guys. I've managed to win the senario (just BARELY) with the follow-up tips, but it was more of a "my ass totally got kicked, but i had a guy on just the right spot to take a flag that made it seem like i won. I still dont feel like i know what im doing

But im STILL pretty clueless about 90% of the above questions , except for being a little more clear on No1 if anyone could answer thoes (i know its a pain helping newbies sometimes) in a bit of detail i'd apreciate it thanks.

[ January 15, 2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Troy Spiral ]

[Troy Spiral]

and the ATRs still seem pretty much worthless.. im sure im doing something wrong (see questions 1-5 in my inital post)

[illo]

I assume you play with extreme FOW. If no, then switch it on and you might do better on defence.

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1. Don't even THINK about using the default setup. All but about two of the AT guns are in bad positions, IMO. I'll leave it up to you to figure out which.

Could someone take some time and have a look at the Russian setup in this mission? It would be helpful to understand why they are -not- places well. For the most part (excpet for the SILLY placement of the HQ units waaaaaaaaay in the back) I dont see the setup as all that bad.

Guns are too exposed as default. They see germans all the time which also means its same vice versa. Germans have better guns, more guns and armor. Not much guessing who will win when your ATGs are spotted.

Place your ATGs in pairs and without direct FOV on advancing enemy armor. This means, when enemy tank comes into to sight of your guns you will have him outgunned 2vs1. Preferably place you guns on terrain which provides good cover. ie. woods or rocky.

Its even better if you have 2nd pair of guns with interlapping FOW (with 1st pair) far on the other side of map. When enemy tank enters FOW you open fire from one side with 1st pair.(you can use cover arc command for this)When/If enemy tank notices and targets gun from 1st pair you can open fire with 2nd pair and hit their vulnerable rear armor rear. Alternatively you can open fire for both sides of enemy simultaneously.

Make more of these AT-traps and enemy will have hell of advancing without infantry.

Also ATRs are poorly placed as default.

I used them mainly for buttoning up german panzers (to keep em blind) but they also got few kills.

two of them were on patches of trees near german start positions facing away from advancing germans. With trees and two tank hunter teams protecting their backs. All were hiding. I issued very small covered arcs to ATRs to keep them from firing when german armor went past. After they had passed some 200m I ordered fire with 2 ATRs from rear.

One enemy tank was immobilized and one knocked out before one of my ATRs was spotted. Most german panzers started to rotate their turrets to the rear to face ATR team. In my next order phase I ordered ATR to sneak into the cover of woods while my pair of ATGs at the forest in middle-left edge of map opened fire to german panzers. (which had their turrets pointing rear to my ATR) More rear turret penetrations and kills.

2. Site your AT guns with limited fields of fire so that you don't get the entire friggin' German Army opening up on the one that took the good shot it had.

I've tried this, albiet with only a slightly edited version of the defualt setup.. and what happens is.. sure your AT guns all get to start firing off at once. But that doesnt matter. The "whole german army" just starts firing at maybe 1 or 2 of the at gins first, busts them one at a time and they are all dead within , at max 2 turns. I assume , to get "overlaping arcs" you have to place them fairly close to one another, and they always seem to die -fast-. What am i doing wrong?

You should have many of YOUR guns firing at enemys lone armor. Look above for examle how to do it.

Whole german army cant fire you if it doesnt have LOS to you. You can pick them one by one when they enter in you LOS.

3. Plan on taking side shots with your AT guns, rear shots with your AT rifles, and no shots with your Maxims.

Side shots? At best i can get sort of "front-side" shots before the enemy tanks notice me. And the AT RIFLES seem worthless, Their range is to short. The guns notice me long before im able to get into anything even -close- to effective range (as listed on the troop info of the ATRs) Help?

Look above.

If your guns don't see any terrain from direction of enemy advance they will propably get side shots if any when enemy passes your positions.

3 Since you aren't going to be taking shots with your Maxims, use them to spot for the AT guns, so they know when they need to be ready to open up; keep the AT guns hiding for as long as possible.

Generally i dont understand the need for "special spotting" I dont even see what its needed for. Even when all my guys are HIDDEN they spot the tanks -LONG- before they are in rang, with no real "spotting" done on my part. What am i missing?

If your guns dont have visual to enemy armor (like they should at this point imho) they cant possibly spot it. Thats why you need some infantry to do it for your ATGs and armor (who are in cover of terrain and cant see advancing enemy)

4 Use your tank hunter teams primarily for last-ditch defense of the objectives. Hope you don't need to use them. Alternatively, use them to protect the backside of an ATR crew or AT gun that is facing away from the front line - just be ready to lose both quickly.

See my ATR comments above, AT infantry have to short of a range to be useful as far as i can tell, they are always spotted before being able to be used effectively , even when i have them hiding. I must be doing something wrong i assume.

Check you FOW(Fog Of War)settings. Make sure its at extreme.

I never have had my AT infantry spotted by tanks when hiding. Even enemy infantry has sometimes walked right past my hiding AT teams without noticing them.

5. Use your tanks as a mobile reserve. Decide where the main fight is going to take place, and position them initially behind that area and out of sight - ideally, their initial position should be a decent one for an AT gun, so that NOT moving is a reasonable option. Despite what you may have heard about KVs, the KV-1S is a lighter version that can be penetrated frontally by Pz IVs with no problem (and don't count out the Pz III). Don't expect them to last long in a stand-up fight.

Pretty much every time , the german tanks kick my tanks asses. I keep the tanks hidden behind a hill, popup for a bit.. fire off a few shots (they almost always glance off or something) then eventually 3-4 german tanks spot me and im dead.

Dont pop up in view of 3-4 german tanks. Its clear you will lose 1vs4 or 2vs4. Make situation 2vs1. Use you 2 tanks to take out enemy one by one. Attack enemy armor when he is busy engaging you ATG for example. Stalk behind hill and ambush when his tank rolls in your sight. Take your position so that you will most likely get flank shots to enemy when he breaks cover.

I hope you understand what I try to say.

[ January 15, 2003, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: illo ]

[Das Reich]

Originally posted by Troy Spiral:

Could someone take some time and have a look at the Russian setup in this mission? It would be helpful to understand why they are -not- places well. For the most part (excpet for the SILLY placement of the HQ units waaaaaaaaay in the back) I dont see the setup as all that bad.

SPOILERS for Citadel Schwerpunkt

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The setup is bad because you allow the German player to engage you from a distance with nearly all of their guns at the same time. I used the little dry river bed and plaace one gun on northern side of the bed, facing south. He was to fire on the flanks of the Germans once they had all filtered into the kill zone. I had the other guns set up in the trees east of the river bed so that they could fire down and into it. If the Germans are to take the objective, they must cross that river bed.

Taking advantage of the cover gives the guns a better chance at staying out of the Germans view as they get closer to the river bed.

I just tried to let the Germans drive right by me and into the river bed, where I sprung a trap on them first by firing from behind, then fron the front and all sides, which created havoc on them.

FWIW, this was against the AI!

I've tried this, albiet with only a slightly edited version of the defualt setup.. and what happens is.. sure your AT guns all get to start firing off at once. But that doesnt matter. The "whole german army" just starts firing at maybe 1 or 2 of the at gins first, busts them one at a time and they are all dead within , at max 2 turns. I assume , to get "overlaping arcs" you have to place them fairly close to one another, and they always seem to die -fast-. What am i doing wrong?

leaving your guns in the open and allowing the Germans to fight with their strenght, which is numbers. That grouping of German tanks is deadly at long range.

Side shots? At best i can get sort of "front-side" shots before the enemy tanks notice me. And the AT RIFLES seem worthless, Their range is to short. The guns notice me long before im able to get into anything even -close- to effective range (as listed on the troop info of the ATRs) Help?

With the ATR's, place them just on the western side of the river bed, right where the ground dips down. The Germans cannot see that area until they are right on top of it. This will give you a first crack at them with a tank hunter team right off the road.

Put the AT rifles in the eastern edge of the woods which are to the west of the river bed. Put them in position so that they can fire on the rear or side of the tanks. this gives them a much better chance at getting a penetration.

the good thing about defending is that you can be patient and make the Germans come to you. this isa "skinny" map so they cannot really move around too much. plot the reasonable path you think they will go through and set a trap or two for them. get as much as you can with the AT guns, ATR and Th teams before you committ your tanks. Leave your tanks to finish off what it left of the enemy tanks. But make sure you make the Germans fight at close range in a tight grouping, and try to knock out the Mk IV's first if at all possible.

Sorry that this is kind of rambling, but I write this in between chasing my 1 year old son around the house.

Good Luck,

[Troy Spiral]

Thanks for the tips guys, i've played the mission several more times, in light of the recent suggestions. And have done much better. But i still know i suck.

Im still a big confused about one thing in perticular:

The idea of "hiding" AT teams and ATRs.

I have been playing with EFOW. But , litterally EVERY time the tanks get within, i'd say 60 m or so, they start finding my ATRs and TH and thats the end of thoes guys!

In the above descriptions, i get the impression that this should -not- be happening, yet im not sure what else to do other than to put them in trees or rough and hit "hide". Why are they still being spotted?