3cm and 3.7cm APCR Against T34 Armor

[rexford]

The John Salt site has some interesting stats on German APCR vs the type of high hardness armor that one might find on a T34 (400 Brinell Hardness and higher).

Go to:

http://salts.britwar.co.uk/mod.php?mod=fileman&menu=8&PHPSESSID=dfd706a9d7dd1e23402bb67dfd962871

then Browse Documents

then WW II Weapon Penetration Tables

then Braun 1977

3cm APCR penetration is given against armor with tensile strength of 100 and 150 kg/mm squared, which corresponds to 284 and 421 Brinell Hardness.

100m penetration of 3cm APCR

284 Brinell Hardness, 100mm vertical and 58mm at 30 degrees from vertical

421 Brinell Hardness, 078mm vertical and 47mm at 30 degrees from vertical

Penetration of 3cm APCR is strongly influenced by plate hardness.

Slope effect at 30 degrees from vertical for 3cm is rather high compared to 76mm HVAP, being about 1.7.

Penetration data for 37mm Flak 18 APCR is given against 150 kg/mm squared plate (421 Brinell Hardness) as 140mm vertical at 100m, with 68mm at 30 degrees from vertical. Slope effect at 30 degrees from vertical is 1.47, much higher than 76mm HVAP.

A graph for 3cm APCR penetration which extends from vertical plate penetration to 45 degrees from vertical indicates that the difference in penetration between 284 and 421 Brinell Hardness plate decreases as the angle from vertical increases, so results should be similar at 60 degrees from vertical.

Net Surfer Bird

[Brigadier]

Bravo rexford , and I mean that quite sincerely. You Sir are a grog amongst grogs.I have to ask, do you have an Engineering background of any discipline? I know the information you post here is held as gospel , and quite rightly so it would seem.

In any case , they say a serious hobby is the most in depth study of all!

[Jarmo]

Ohhh.. could somebody translate?

I read that 3 times and still dont know if 37mm can penetrate T-34. :confused:

Turret or hull? Eh?

[OZ77]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

if 37mm can penetrate T-34. :confused:

They could if they were using ONLY tungsten ammo, but each 37mm ATG crew had ONLY 1-3 tungsten shells in 1941. And it was quite hard to damage T-34 with such a light (0.368 kg) shell, so ability of german infantry to stop T-34 was very low in 41.

Resources: The book of German general Mickendolf"(sorry, maybe wrong spelling) "Russian company"

In CMBB, 37mm ammo that called armor-piercing has penetration data of TUNGSTEN-64mm 0* at 100m(Pzgr40). :confused: :confused: though the penetration data of REAL AP was only ~37mm 0* at 100m

web page

As for Russian 45 mm ATG it is also the intresting point. It CMBB it is only 37mm 0*(until 31 december 1941) at 100m, though on Romanian and Finnish captured Ba-10 the same gun can penetrate 51mm 0*. :confused: :confused:

Also found this:

web page

The main point of this site is: 51mm 0*at 100m. EXACTLY the same parametres as "Romanian and Finnish" Ba-10

This data change all game balance in 41 in favour of Axis. This also makes BT and T-26 extremely useless in CMBB , but in real 45mm(1941) could penetrate majority of the Axis tanks from the front.

[offtaskagain]

Originally posted by OZ77:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jarmo:

if 37mm can penetrate T-34. :confused:

They could if they were using ONLY tungsten ammo, but each 37mm ATG crew had ONLY 1-3 tungsten shells in 1941. And it was quite hard to damage T-34 with such a light (0.368 kg) shell, so ability of german infantry to stop T-34 was very low in 41.

</font>

[flamingknives]

Posted by:OZ77

As for Russian 45 mm ATG it is also the intresting point. It CMBB it is only 37mm 0*(until 31 december 1941) at 100m, though on Romanian and Finnish captured Ba-10 the same gun can penetrate 51mm 0*.

Also found this:

web page

The main point of this site is: 51mm 0*at 100m. EXACTLY the same parametres as "Romanian and Finnish" Ba-10

This data change all game balance in 41 in favour of Axis. This also makes BT and T-26 extremely useless in CMBB , but in real 45mm(1941) could penetrate majority of the Axis tanks from the front

The early war 45mm performance has been reduced due to evidence that the AP shells were poorly manufactured and tended to shatter on impact.

It would be interesting to know if the Finns and Romanians manufactured their own ammunition for the 45mm ATG (in which case they would sport the higher performance) or if they used captured Russian stocks (in which case they would suffer the same degraded performance as the Soviet gun)

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by OZ77:

As for Russian 45 mm ATG it is also the intresting point. It CMBB it is only 37mm 0*(until 31 december 1941) at 100m, though on Romanian and Finnish captured Ba-10 the same gun can penetrate 51mm 0*. :confused: :confused:

Also found this:

web page

The main point of this site is: 51mm 0*at 100m. EXACTLY the same parametres as "Romanian and Finnish" Ba-10

This data change all game balance in 41 in favour of Axis. This also makes BT and T-26 extremely useless in CMBB , but in real 45mm(1941) could penetrate majority of the Axis tanks from the front.

I think it was somewhere mentioned (manual?) that in 1941 Russian AP ammo was of poor quality resulting in lower penetration figuers.

If you check penetration data for the same gun in 1942 it goes up to not only 51mm at 0°, but 63mm at 0° at 100m.

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by OZ77:

In CMBB, 37mm ammo that called armor-piercing has penetration data of TUNGSTEN-64mm 0* at 100m(Pzgr40). :confused: :confused:

I don't know where you get that 64mm penetration data from in CMBB. I checked and it is (patch1.02)

51mm at 0° at 100m for PAk 37mm L/45

and

53mm at 0° at 100m for Flak 37

for AP shot.

One of the best guns (besides from 50mm Pak, Panzerjäger I and 88) on the German side is actually the 37mm L48 on the Pz38(t) with a penetration of 67mm at 0° at 100m and 54mm at 0° at 100m.

This indicates that Pz38(t) can penetrate the rounded turret front armor of the T-34 out to 500m.

In a test I runned I had 50 pairs of T-34 M41 and Pz38(t) going against each other frontally at 440m range. Result was 43 dead Pz38(t) and 7 T-34 lost...

The rounded turret front deflected about 30% of all front turret hits, albeit this percentage could be rather inaccurate since I did only 50 test runs.

Oh, and the the T-34's where hit 143 times (!!!) by the Pz 38(t) while the T-34's hit the Pz 38(t) only 66 times (faster ROF and more accurate gun on the Pz38 (t)). 143 hits to destroy 7 T-34's...

Remember that the T-34 41 models get a 95% armor quality only.

The 41 model with cast turret has a slightly thicker turret front armor than the other 41 model (52mm instead of 45mm). This might make the a difference especially for the 37mm Pak.