Attacking against SMGs in 1941 (cont'd)

[jtcm]

Actually, I was inspired by the topic, so ran two experiments:

1. Against AI. Take a SMG Co. Give the AI 1200 points worth of infantry. Set up your defense in woods. Watch the AI human wave your SMGers. After the battle is over, find out which of you squads has highest kill count (one squad had 60).

2. Against AI. Give the AI the SMG Co. Take a regular rifle co., 2 HMGs, 1 plt of pioneers (6 squads+ fts).

Move up against the first objective (block of woods + flag) that must be held by AI. Set up: as many squads as possible to have LOS to the outer zone of woods. AI will have set up there, so when he opens up against your point squads, blast him away with return fire from comfortable range (150-200m). When AI exposed squads have run away, enter the woods with your boarding party-- all pioneers + fts, and 1 plt of rifle. Find and destroy remaining SMG squads in woods. You have one objective flag.

AI will react by sending other SMG squads to counter-attack. If they come across open ground, your HMGs and mortars will have been set up to make this difficult. If they come under cover, even a disorganized, throw-the-kitchen-sink, AI-organized counter attack will mess you up: close encounters between fresh SMG squads and your depleted assault party (with, usually, guys all over because of the necessity of developping divergent and overlapping angles of fire and pin on the SMG squads) will be (as JasonC said once, I think), like seizing a buzzsaw. The result of these encounters will be to throw you back, or out. If, however, you still have some overwatch, you can then try to catch the counter-attack elements as they approach the edge of the woods.

Just some thoughts !

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by jtcm:

Actually, I was inspired by the topic, so ran two experiments:

1. Against AI. Take a SMG Co. Give the AI 1200 points worth of infantry. Set up your defense in woods. Watch the AI human wave your SMGers. After the battle is over, find out which of you squads has highest kill count (one squad had 60).

...which is interesting. In Real Life[tm], an avtomatchik would carry maybe 200 rounds at most, enough for five minutes of rooty-toot at the very conservative rate of 40 rds/min.

All the best,

John.

[JasonC]

It isn't rounds per minute, it is rounds per man. Which in turn is a function of range and (fleeting) enemy exposure.

A short PPsH burst is around 15 rounds. It only needs to hit one man, for a squad to rack up that kind of kill total. The enemy will run out of men to throw onto your fire, before you run out of ammo, if you can get hit rates remotely in that range.

Granted, at average battle ranges most forms of ammo expenditure can't dream of hit rates that high - but point blank automatic fire is easily the most effective "kills per fire opportunity", small arms every get.

Meanwhile, on the issue of how much firing infantry really did, a standard US rifleman's load of around 80 rounds, was expected to last him a week.

[DavidFields]

Ok, at the risk of asking a question that has likely recently been answered:

In real life, did the Russian SMGs in 1941 cut through german squads in the woods as they do in CM? I would think the tactic for the german troops in the woods would be to stay behind large trees, close, and then pop out and take a shot--not a tactic that can be well represented with this game engine. Again, in the german troops are in good cover, the Russians could poor thousands of rounds at them and cause no casualties--which is not going to occur with CM algorithms.

Although, to get to another threads questions about how realistic CM is, the tactical counters proposed on these boards in CM still seem reasonably realistic.

[bitchen frizzy]

Originally posted by Rankorian:

In real life, did the Russian SMGs in 1941 cut through german squads in the woods as they do in CM?

Sort of. An SMG firefight in woods in CM takes place at ranges shorter than infantry would usually close in WWII.

The pixeltroops in the SMG squads are assumed to be spread out around the squad symbol, so the real life analogue would be that at short ranges, somebody in the squad would have an angle on any German trying to hide behind a tree.

In a short-range, sudden-encounter shoot-from-the-hip firefight like that, I'd hate to be one of the guys using a bolt-action rifle.

[jtcm]

I should add that if you play a SMG Co against a Rifle Battn, even in woods, even against AI, you will lose-- at some point the 9mm runs out, or some guys get pinned, and then the rifle guys just swamp you.

[Guest Mike]

In real life, did the Russian SMGs in 1941.....

In real life there were precious few SMG's in the Russian army in 1941 - production of the PPSh only started in November 41, and not many PPD's were made before then.

[JasonC]

The Russian army has 100,000 SMGs available before the German invasion, and made 100,000 SMGs in the course of 1941. 150,000 PPsH were made by the spring of 1942 as production ramped. In the whole of 1942 SMG production was 1.5 million, in 1943 and 1944 2 million each year. There were 1.1 million on strength at the begining of 1943, counting losses. Those figures should be compared to 7.7 million rifles before the invasion and 5.6 million at the start of 1943, and 250,000 MGs (light and medium combined) at both points.

So there were few SMGs in 1941, they became about 20% of the small arms mix in the course of 1942, and their proportion thereafter rose gradually to the end of the war. Full rifle production declined in 1944 as the carbine version of the Mosin Nagant took over from the long rifle, but rifles or carbines remained the most common. 900,000 machineguns were also added in 1943 and 1944, more than enough to beat the (high, order 300,000 a year) loss rate.

The PPsH was very easy to make - it took less than 7 man-hours per item, half the labor input of the previous PPD, for a superior weapon. Far less than for a rifle, let alone a machinegun.

[JasonC]

jtcm - I decided to test your claim that the AI can beat SMGs in woods if it just has enough numbers, because it hasn't been my experience in the past, in less controlled circumstances. So I tried this.

The Germans get a full infantry battalion, green quality to stay under a 1200 point limit.

I get 400 points of Russian defenders. Terrain is rural heavy woods, central front, time November 1941. Both sides are infantry only force type.

I took an SMG company, 2 Maxim MGs, 2 trenches, 3 AP minefields, and 10 wire. If I had 500 points I'd add a 120mm mortar FO and a TRP, but I didn't give myself that in this test.

End result after 30 minutes - all flags held, Russians lost 24 out of 112 men. Germans lost 419 out of 541 and were shattered.

I did not exploit open ground terrain. Nearly the entire firefight took place in a large patch of full pines, though I got a few minute of delaying fire in the first 5 minutes from one Maxim that could see his main approach route.

I did exploit obstacles to make a "shield" ahead of my main position. With a wire "hole" stopped by 2 AP minefields, oriented for depth not width. And I exploited depth of positioning of the SMGs.

The front line SMG platoon right behind the obstacle belt killed 311 men. One squad was wiped out, another reduced to 2 men, and the last squad lost 3, 6 still alive. The HQ was dry but unscathed.

The left flank platoon's squad infantry took out 53 men - it flanked the AIs best "hook" around the obstacle belt - and the Maxims got 28 between them.

The right was deliberately weak - HQ and single split squad plus MG - and not heavily engaged, being largely shielded by open ground. They took fire from light mortars and MGs in the second half of the fight, but still had the HQ covering the open on a short arc, with full ammo remaining, at the end.

A reserve platoon behind the main position was barely used. One green squad in it fired until dry, hitting 11 men. Two veteran squads (randomly so, all were bought as regulars) and the company HQ were unscathed, with only 4 shots expended by one of the squads.

With a TRP and 120mm on the main woods block ahead of the obstacle, the rout would have been even more complete. If I had still more points (up to normal attack odds e.g.), I'd add a company of pioneers and a pair of infantry guns, and 2 more Maxims. Especially in more open terrain, that would have better long range firepower and ammo staying power, and would smash overly concentrated infantry (with HE from distance, and with demo charges point blank).

But those are realistic extras I'd want against a human. Against the machine, they are superfluous - 1 to 3 point odds and 1 to 5 manpower odds are still a calkwalk.

Yes the front line platoon was dry pretty fast. But it killed a lot of men in the process, and continued to fire on "low" as men straggled across or around the wire. Flanking fire narrowed the attack. Anyone who got deep enough inside met grenades, close combat, and where needed fire from a reserve position behind the penetrated platoon.

The AI is simply incapable of making a numbers edge "tell", in the presence of any kind of obstacle. Even with cover. The thick woods acted as a reserve slope LOS block and kept the unengaged portions of his force from helping the lead men.

FWIW.

[Guest Mike]

Yes they certainly had heaps by the end of 1942......but the original question was about 1941.

I wonder how many of the 200,000 made before 1942 were lost in 1941.......

[JasonC]

I'd guess the 80k they started with were gone by the end of the year, replaced by new production, holding the level available about steady. In 1942 they lost at least 400,000, considering production that year and the amount they started 1943 with. With 500,000 a more likely loss figure.

The absolute loss rate obviously has to be lower in 1941 - there simply weren't that many to lose - but the relative loss rate was probably higher, since 1941 losses were, per unit time at least. In the same period the Russians made something like 350,000 full machineguns, but the number in the field didn't move.

So, you'd start the war with 80,000, still have just 100,000 at the end of the year, and then climb 1 million units in the course of 1942, despite higher absolute losses. Higher absolute loss rate in 1943 too, but higher production, and the amount in the force probably climbs another million.

As portions of the small arms mix, 1 out of 60-90 in 1941 (rare), climbing to 1 out of 5 by the begining of 1943, then further to 1 out of 3-4 late war. The big move happens in 1942, probably concentrated somewhat in the second half. Full MGs don't climb until later - centered around the start of 1944, say - flat through the start of 1943, then up modestly as the loss rate falls and production increases somewhat.

[jtcm]

JasonC: yes, but try a block of woods, and a SMG Co alone, against 4 Cos of German Rifle (Regs). No wire, no HMGs, just swarms of infy pushing against and around your "buzzsaws". Fight on line, or fight deep, or counter-attack-- in the end, AI numbers will tell, I think. But it's true that I'm not as careful at "driving" infantry as you clearly are !

The highest kills I got were for a squad set up in cover, but with good LOS to a clearing-- the German follow-up / overwatch units still deep in the woods, the German front squad in open ground but within good SMG range of my Sov SMG squad-- the result was German squad after squad fed into mincing machine, in quick succession.

[ May 22, 2008, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: jtcm ]

[JasonC]

Next tell me if you charge across a railroad track on "fast" with SMG halfsquads using 30m covered arcs, into German infantry and heavy machineguns that outnumber you 3 to 1, you can lose. Um, we all understand, I trust, that play sufficiently bad can lose.

Short range infantry fights from reverse slope deployments. That is its whole purpose in life. If you wanted to fight from "up" positions, you'd use longer range weapons and a shield of open ground ahead of the defenders. Short range infantry based defenses are "back" instead, and avoid the bulk of the attacker's firepower, hitting only his leading edge at any one time.

In large bodies of continuous woods, reverse slope positions are constructed behind man made obstacle belts. Or behind registered artillery traps, with plenty of ammo available to keep them going. Or both. That is just how forest defenses work. A line of men just strung across the middle of a forest hoping to beat superior numbers because they ate their wheaties, isn't a defense at all. Any more than charging across railroad under fire, with half squads, at "run", is an attack.

[jtcm]

Thanks for the reply. But AI attacks are just rushes, and all you did is set up some wire and mines, so that an AI Battn just piled into it (including, no doubt, mortars and HMGs), and then you tommy-gunned them to shreds. Good fun, no doubt,

Straight woods fight, limited LOS no wire or TRPs, SMG hasty blocking force against vastly superior forces that simply rush on, i.e. AI or indeed human opponent trying to overcome the LOS block factor by simply overloading any firefight with lots of rifle and LMG armed shooters from different angles hoping that some get shots in before the SMGs mow down all of their opposing squads.

In this set up, can you win (against AI or generally) ? Probably, if you use the brilliant micro-tactics that Walpurgis Nacht / Faustius (is he still around ?) used to apply-- i.e lots of small ambushes and fall backs, with carefully calibrated arcs and checkboard lines, and "stops" on the flanks to prevent being overrun from the side. I'm not patient enough to pull that off, even against the AI. No idea if this is historical.

[jtcm]

Actually, I tried again. AI had 4 Cos of Reg rifles. I had SMG Co. October 1941. Woods.

My setup: in thick block of woods ahead of flag, plt A in line, plt B on the right flank, refused, plt C minus one squad as second line, Co. commander and one squad as flying reserve.

AI came on in mad bull style. Ran into the first plt: very quick firefight resulted in ammo depletion— and 270 casualties for AI. I sent in C plt just behind first plt. Tried to withdraw plt A-- one squad got away. C plt then was up for it-- caused 120 casualties. As it was buckling, I threw in Co commander, his squad, and B plt swinging in from the flank. Result: 7 casualties for me, hundreds for AI.

Conclusions ?

Actually, JasonC's right-- the AI finds it difficult even without having to fight against obstacles, etc, to even dent a SMG co fighting without any great tactics. What I said earlier, "numbers eventually tell, even when AI is driving", is wrong.

The deadly thing is not slugging it out with SMG-men close range, it's having their friends come and join the party: their arguments are just so much more emphatic. AI found my flank, and several squads had found angles to concentrate fire on my extreme left squad and had it pinned. I sent in a squad of SMG-- which just waded in and devoured one of the AI's flanking squads, and broke the AI's flanking move.

How do you break SMGs in woods ? Which is sort of how we started. Once, fighting against GravesRegistration, I remember seeing with surprise a block of heavy pines erupt with explosion after explosion-- he was using pioneers and demo charges as "stun grenades" to fight his way into what he thought was a SMG infested grove. Actually, it was empty, so that his pioneers were DC-less for the real firefight.

[ May 23, 2008, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: jtcm ]

[JasonC]

I've set up a test scenario to demonstrate the many alternate ways to smash SMG infantry in woods. Always with the proviso, that these are AI commanded SMGs, not nearly as deadly as they can be in skillful human hands. But I've given the AI the benefit of my force selection and set up.

The defending Russian force is the same as in my defeat of the German infantry battalion above - meaning, a regular SMG company, 2 Maxims with trenches for them, and 3 AP minefield and 10 wire as obstacles. The terrain is rural heavy woods, with a single road bisecting them, with 1 large and 2 small flags. The AI gets MGs covering the flanks from trenches, reduced platoon on each flank with some SMGs deployed into half squads.

The Russian right is largely covered by wire, with a single tile's width covered by point blank SMGs and a bit of open ground, as a gap in the wire. The MG on that side also covers that area, and sneaks a LOS line across a long narrow clearing just ahead of the main Russian blocking position.

The main position consists of a big block of woods with wire along much of its forward face, with AP mines instead right along the road. There is a single tile of gap in these, but you have to go around to find it - any straight in approach between the obvious wire, will hit mines. A full strength SMG platoon covers this, with the company HQ and 2 more SMG squads behind it all in second line.

The left front of that position is blocked by wire in a woods interior, cutting off a tongue of woods outside the defending part, at a narrow point. A split squad of SMGs covers that wire at close range. The far left is open, with the second MG covering it, and the "tongue" and wire. One SMG squad on that side is split and covering the open ahead of the MG, the other is a bit closer to the middle and farther back, to switch hit if need be.

In other words, the AI starts with a good solid defense. Not perfect, but not easy to crack. The AI doesn't know how to command the defense - that is another matter! And not one I am trying to solve here.

The idea then is that the Germans get less than 700 points (under assault odds) to attack this position. Since the time is late 1941, that isn't even enough to buy 2 companies of regular infantry - though if you took small recon squads you might try to squeeze it in.

Six different Germans combat teams are to take this defense on, each with some special "long suit". The point is to learn German tactics and the weapons they rely on. It isn't meant to be particularly hard, if you know how to use your edge, given the AI's weaknesses. But you will need to know how to use the extras you get.

Here are the six different methods and the force each gets

Panzer -

panzer rifle company

2 Panzer IV F

1 Panzer II Flamm

Schutzen heavy weapons -

panzer rifle company

2 extra HMG-34 (4 total)

2 SPW 251/2

2 Quad 20mm Flak

1 SPW 251/1 prime mover

SIGs -

grenadier company

2 150mm sIG guns

2 HMG-34

2 SPW 251/1 prime mover

Artillery -

grenadier company

150mm radio FO, 4 tube variety

Pioneers -

grenadier company

pioneer platoon

4th flamethrower

Infantry heavy weapons -

grenadier company

105mm line FO

2 75mm leIG

2 HMG-34 MG teams

1 81mm mortar

That is the challenge and setting.

I tried the Panzer force first. Beat the defense easily in about 20 minutes. The Pz II was KOed by a close assault and the crew KOed afterward, and the Schutzen lost 19 men. The Russians lost 80 some and another 10 surrenders. The Panzer IVs accounted for 37 men between them. The AI's main problems? It doesn't hold its fire enough, and it also moves around a lot.

I was readily able to get fire ascendency across the narrow clearing ahead of the main blocking position by risking the tanks (buttoned) at nearly point-blank range, and then fed squads across. A few AP mines were triggered, and one squad was broken on wire by an unseen flanking MG. But the immediate wire covering squads all fired before I was on the wire, and were outshot and routed. The tanks smashed the Russian right flank position, their left I simple avoided.

There were 3 entry points eventually used, with 5 squads fed through the main one in the center. In the woods interiors it was all about getting a second squad on the specific shooter, unmolested. Whenever possible I engaged only after prep had pinned the defender. Prep came from pairs of 50mm mortars, from HMGs, and most of all from the tanks. I avoided using squads for it because of their own limited ammo.

So, first point - Germans can trump SMGs with steel plate, and yes they can even be effective in rural heavy woods flat maps. The panzers can't do all of it, but they can get the panzer rifle guys in, and better small unit tactics can do the rest.

I'll report on the other forces when I've play those versions of the fight. If people are interested, I can also make all 6 available.

[jtcm]

I'd love to see the others, yes. I must say I find the "getting second squad on specific shooter" bit difficult: my point squad stumbles into a SMG ambush, gets shot up, I rush a squad in to alleviate the pressure, but fear that second squad may, in turn, fall into an ambush, etc.

[JasonC]

So I've now tried the second method, the artillery supported infantry. They didn't have as easy a time of it, stalling due to the auto-cease fire behavior once ammo got low.

The Germans approached the Russian right, and quickly beat the forward guards on that side via a 6 on 2 infantry firefight, at 60-100 meters range. A Russian MG intervened as well, and was suppressed by 50mm mortar fire, but wound up consuming a lot of ammo from the lead German platoon on that wing, before being closed with and finished off. A few Russians moving over to help were engaged and seen off, again using mostly ammo.

One platoon in the center harassed Russians trying to reposition from their left to the right, where the "wing attack" was taking place. With just a couple of rifle squads, though, they were unable to fully close the road crossing through the woods, and some Russians did reposition successfully.

While all this went on, the FO set up his missions, and fired first just to the right of the road crossing area, and then shifted to dead ahead, within 75m of his own position. Obviously this was "danger close" with a vengeance, for 150mm HE. A couple of rounds did land short, and suppressed a number of Germans, even after they pulled back as the mission came in. A half dozen men were hit, as well.

The arty worked over the Russians opposite, in half minute increments mostly, finishing with a minute and change after several shifts. It broke most of the Russians in the areas if could see, but could not arrange the shell corridors to hit all locations. Post game, it was seen to have inflicted 36 Russian casualties.

The Germans followed the barrage with a company HQ led 4 squad "platoon", entering through the area cleared in the initial fighting. Another platoon was farther forward on the German left, flanking this move in, but out of ammunition (the HQ had a dozen shots left, all squads on LOW). A half squad and HQ overwatched from the jump off line, and the right side platoon was still good order and mostly full ammo. Of the 4 squads assaulting, one had 16 ammo left, the others (picked for it) 20 to 35.

The Russians were not completely smashed ahead of them, however. There were about a dozen men in 3 scattered SMG units in the woods they entered, and one squad took fire in the open getting in - made it, but in a pinned state. There were another dozen Russians left unrouted on the field, but split between a half dozen ahead of the German right side platoon, and a half dozen in shaken to pinned half-squads rallying in the rear.

The Germans had enough to beat those remnants, and there was sufficient time on the clock, too. But there wasn't sufficient ammo left in the German pouches, apparently. With all 50mm mortars and the FO dry, plus the whole left platoon, the combined ammo and morale state was dangerously low.

The firefight in the woods as the assault platoon arrived, dropped the Germans below the auto-cease fire offer line, and the fight ended early. 33 Germans had been hit, and 55 Russians.

The terrain is a bit tight for the big FO method. The Germans would be more capable if they had one more heavy weapons group - 2 HMGs and an 81mm mortar e.g. - to cover the center road, leaving nearly all the infantry for the break in. But it can work in principle, baring auto ceasefire "saves" of the Russians, coming merely from the German ammo state.

[JasonC]

Next tried the SIGs, and won easily with 30 German losses, vs. 85 Russians. The SIGs themselves accounted for 23 men and broke numerous positions, the halftracks got 4 more, MGs also 4, light mortars 2 and helped break a couple of units.

This time I did a wing attack on the right side, everyone going to the right of the road. The ground is a bit more open on the far right and I wanted one SIG out there to pound the flanking guard into oblivion, then swing in that way. The other SIG went just to the right of the road, with its accompanying track and MG set up to shoot straight along it to cut down repositioning men.

Each SIG wound up firing from 2 different positions. The one on the right moved a bit prematurely, after eliminating the trench MG on its side and hitting 3 different positions with a turn of area fire each. As it happened, there were still two intact positions on that side, which caused the infantry a bit of trouble crossing some wire a couple minutes later. The SIG was already rehooked and moving by then. Actually, it was being dropped at the new chosen spot, and took fire while being pushed. Lost 3 men, got tired, but made it into position and resumed fire. 2 50mm mortars silenced one of the shooters and saved the day.

The main way in was through the tongue of land and across the wire barrier defending it, relying on firepower along each flank to suppress fire lengthwise along the wire, and 4 squads hard up against it to break the couple of units beyond it. Worked ok, but one squad that went around through a minefield was caught by a local SMG counterattack, broke, and ran back onto wire. It was wiped out there, accounting for a 3rd of overall German losses.

The right side 'track was also shocked by MG fire before that MG was silenced, depriving me of its MG firepower. The other 'track did good service as a mobile MG nest, however, and the shocked track still functioned fine as a prime mover.

The rest was careful movement in the woods to beat piecemeal SMG units as they came over trying to stop me. One counterattack late from the German right was shreaded by the SIG on that side, and a couple of single units on the left, likewise, by the other SIG and its track. As squads ran low on ammo, they were left to guard the road flank, and units with ammo remaining pushed on. The Russians never managed another real stand after that. One squad lost 5 men in successive brushes with SMG teams, and 10 more were scattered over the other squads. But each shooter soon faced 3-4 Germans and did not fire for long.

[jtcm]

Nice. The proportion "in woods", not 2 on 1 SMG, but 3 or 4 rifle squads for each SMG squad, is revealing.