Deployment of Axis infantry against armour.

[Apache]

I'm trying to work out roughly how often, if ever, Heer fought infantry only type battles (as in CMBB infantry only with no armour and no vehicles) against Soviet either combined arms or armoured formations? I suspect it must have happened given the amount of infantry Germany had compared to armour etc but I would assume any German commander would try to ensure that where intell suggested they would be going up against armour, their forces would have atleast something by way of support.

On the attack I find towed PAK is OK against armour except you are not even allowed vehicles to tow it into combat position in 'Infantry only.' Man-handling it is OK but slow on a 32 turn medium map.

Does anyone have any data/info that might assist? I'm trying to work out some amendments for campaign rules and want to ensure that I am not forcing myself to fight pitched battles between infantry and armour on too much of a non-historic basis. I'm intereseted in 41-42 at moment.

[JasonC]

On defense, this was the majority of the fighting. The Germans had infantry force type, with the defense built around guns and infantry heavy weapons, dug in rather than armored.

On attack, the German infantry certainly attacked without tank support, but mostly against Russian infantry defenses. Would they sometimes encounter defending tanks? Undoubtedly. They would have to deal with them with their own guns, heavy weapons, and artillery. But if they couldn't easily, due to terrain and enemy tank numbers or what-not, they'd go over to a local defensive.

What weapons would they have to deal with armor in 41-42? 37mm PAK first and foremost, they could count on having those, and they work fine against all the Russian lights. 105mm howitzers could be used direct, a battery at a time, and in 1941 often were when mediums or heavies were encountered, though typically in "gun front" defenses. Heavier 50mm PAK would be rare in 1941, but common enough in 1942 - with the same being true for T-34s on the Russian side. Light AA was rare in the early infantry divisions, but would be useful against the Russian lights when it was available.

Infantry guns make poor AT pieces, but would also be available, and against the very thin early Russian tanks would be of some use at close or medium range. Even HMGs aren't useless against the armored car variety of light armor. 150mm and 105mm artillery firing indirect could also be tried; ammo for those wasn't as scarce as CM QB prices can sometimes make it seem.

Should they have prime movers for them? There were trucks for some, certainly, particularly the PAK and AA, but the bulk of the artillery of the Heer infantry was horse drawn. They would not be trying to maneuver 105s forward under fire with horses.

In CM, does it make sense to allow a few trucks and kubelwagens to move guns into position? Perhaps. It also makes sense to give them more time. There were not typically in a 30 minute rush. The typical time limits in CM QBs are OK for the endurance of the actual fighting, because ammo will give out and men break in such time periods. But the approach might be 10 minutes longer, without either side getting "blown" by the supposedly "longer combat".

Mostly, you just have to overwatch the areas you think are important from the starting positions. If you can't, then short movements to the nearest LOS blockage are certainly possible. LOS blockages tend to work in two directions, and you can man-handle a light gun like a 37mm PAK or 75mm IG 80m down a road and into the trees on one side of it, easily enough. Very unforgiving if you get shot at, but the same is at least equally true if hitched to an unarmored truck.

Later on, 43 and after, the infantry could call on Marders or StuGs to help them in such situations. An independent StuG brigade could be attached to a Heer infantry division that had to make an important counterattack. But they were mostly on the defensive by that point.

[Apache]

Thanks for reply Jason. I know it's hard to be definitive but I am currently working on the basis of 4 PAK 36 per Bn of infantry (IF they have them for that battle). Is that too few? Some sources I have indicate a Bn would have access to up to 12? Seems a bit high (that source is a wargame rule book mind and is perhaps not accurate).

I will perhaps modify the 'rules' I am using to ensure that there is less likelihhod of Heer facing armour on the attack without armoured or at least some type of reasonable support, giving the opportunity to cater for the odd one-off where they encounter them by surprise.

I'd planned to switch more to PAK 38 early 42 then PAK 40 late 43 to end. Again not all the time, just trying to get a feel for what's right. PAK 43 I assume are rare.

[ February 03, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]