Typical German Force Makeup

[Der Alte Fritz]

It would be a big help if I could get the typical German forces to match our Soviet ones in the Typical Russian Force thread. 3000 points with Infantry, PzGr and Panzer parent divisions for 1942 and 1943 and typical line units rather than SS. Thank you.

I have got from other threads '44 Panzer 5000, 3000, 2000 and '44 infantry 3000 and 2000 point forces. Also Arm Recce force and PzGr (Mech) and (Armoured) 1500 point forces

JasonC

Operation Uranus continues but I realised after playing 22nd Pz vs 5 TA that it must be an old version and have now downloaded the new one which looks winnable. Have posted results of OLD version on TPG.

cheers

[JasonC]

Plenty varies with era, attacking or defending, mission and terrain. And there are all sorts of purely optional variants in terms of what guns to take and other forms of support. But here is some for the Kursk era, ID parent combined arms, attacking or ME portion of the question -

German 3000 point ME or attack combined arms forces, Kursk era

StuG - PAK - Flak

Regular Jager Battalion

2 StuG III early-mid

1 StuH

2 105mm FO

3 81mm on map (plus the FO from battalion)

2 75mm PAK 40

2 Quad 20mm Flak

2 panzerschreck

1 kubelwagen (moves 2 75mm leIG from battalion

2 Sdkfz (move PAK and FLAK)

FW-190 air support

-or-

drop air support, increase on map 81s to 6, make the FLAK SP as 7/1 Flakwagens

-or-

no StuH, StuG platoon of 3 instead, add 3rd Schreck (anticipating more enemy armor).

Marders and HE

Jager battalion

4 Marder III early (platoon)

2 Grille (sIG 33 model, 50mm front)

+4 75mm leIG makes 6 all told

6 on map 81mm

2 105mm FOs

1 37mm FLAK, towed

1 Sdkfz

2 kubelwagens

StuG - PAK - Shreck (tank killing)

Jager Battalion

3 StuG early mid

3 75mm PAK

3 Panzerschreck

2 105mm FO

3 81mm on map

3 Sdkfz

Ju-87 tank buster air support

1 7/2 37mm Flakwagen

Vets and sIGs

Veteran infantry battalion (*not* Jager)

Vet StuG platoon

2 Vet sIG 150mm

6 Vet 81mm on map

3 Vet panzerschreck

2 Vet 105mm FO

1 Vet Flakwagen, 7/1 or 7/2

1 Vet Sdkfz to move sIGs

Kursk Special Assault Group (north, AG center)

Veteran infantry battalion

crack pioneer platoon

regular Brummbar

regular Elephant or 2 regular StuG III early-mid

2 105mm vet radio FOs + 3 vet 81mm on map -or-

1 150mm vet radio FO + 6 vet 81mm on map

Round out with schrecks etc.

In any event, 36 squads and 18 HMGs for the infantry part of the force, in many cases with 6-8 small pioneer teams added, FTs and schrecks etc.

A StuG or Marder platoon usually forms the basic armor support, with occasionally other HE chucker assault guns - and in the special case of Kursk, very thick ones. Vehicles are limited to prime movers and a few SP Flak vehicles. Towed guns can be awesome and the support category is typically maxed out. Supporting artillery is reasonably responsive and middling caliber, and is liberally supplemented by 81mm mortars.

I hope this helps.

[JasonC]

As for how you use them, I suppose the German infantry fighting system may not be self explanatory.

First, form heavy weapons groups alongside infantry platoons, each built around a few HMGs and an HQ, with some other weapon added - an 81mm on map, an FO, a towed gun, whatever. Group together pairs of each around a higher level HQ, to give tasking flexibility etc.

Regular infantry scouts routes for the heavy weapons groups, who "own" cover with LOS and extend a network of LOS lines outward to medium range.

First job is scouts out to find the enemy and especially his armor. All regular platoons, with the rest of their groups trailing. Just eyes forward and taking possession of bits of cover, is the idea, no serious fighting against anything more than enemy scouts etc.

As the enemy is found the leading regular infantry goes stationary, holds off men crossing open, only, otherwise skulks away from anything with real firepower. Weapons groups close up, set up. They want their LOS lines to cut the terrain side to side and slice off forward bits with crossing LOS lines behind them etc. Just restrict easy enemy movement and hold the stuff you reached, against open ground crossings.

Now draw trump - in other words, win the armor war. Your armor, PAK, and schrecks have all been hanging back so far. You've seen enemy armor here or there. Now you hunt it. You have weapons that will kill anything they can see. See, kill, repeat. When the enemy armor is dead or contained, proceed to the next phase, but not before.

Next phase is to probe the foremost, cut off bits of cover, with a few scouts. If there are real enemies there, you then bring up the appropriate heavy tool and murder them. While HMGs cut the lines of retreat etc. Regular platoons follow up into already beaten opponents, they do not need to KO them alone. Don't fight the whole enemy force, fight the pieces of it that seem most vulnerable, hardest to support or to withdraw, etc.

The special heavier weapons all work by keyholing, to avoid reply fire. In the case of the 81s on map and the 105 FOs, obviously indirect does the same job. With the thick front armor, similarly - with sides covered by terrain etc, and no advancing farther than needed to get LOS. If they aren't well within your own infantry positions you are doing it wrong.

No Russian vehicles can stand under long 75mm fire, or schreck fire even. No Russian infantry can make serious progress across open areas that numerous HMG42s are interdicting. No Russian infantry can survive in woods plastered by 105mm indirect or buildings plastered by 75mm direct, or anything plastered by 150mm anything. No Russian guns can survive long under 81mm mortar fire, to which they cannot reply.

In the infantry firefight, the gun line is 150-250 meters from the enemy and the heavy lifting is done by all the HMGs and on map guns. Infantry can help in occasional "mad minutes", firing by whole platoons to break single enemies. Then they advance. When fire stops them, do not press, do not race, just call fire on the shooters and repeat.

I hope this helps.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi JasonC

Have finished my scenario with a 5000 point force from a Tank Corps meeting a German infantry force of 3000 points StuG - PAK - Shreck (tank killing) version while driving across a big map.

Next project is a breakthrough attack same period post-Kursk. Rifle Division supported by heavy tank regt assaulting a German Infantry Division. Typical German defences are too deep at 5km so I am assuming they have already broken through the outpost line and this will be the assault on the MLR.

What would be good for a German force if the Russian force is 3000 points, Infantry KVs and artillery. Want to put it as reduced strength/weakened to simulate effect of opening bombardment.

Secondly mid 43, how common are 50mm PAKs in infantry forces?

many thanks

[JasonC]

Depending on whether you want assault odds or attack odds the Germans might have 1750 or 2000 points. They might be infantry only or combined arms force type, with a few Marders or StuG in the latter case. They might be strongly entrenched, a front line position, or they might be trying to hold a piece of terrain (village, wood, hill) without much field fortification, only foxholes and a few TRPs.

The basic pattern for the dug in ones would be a company of infantry plus HMG platoon, PAK, 105mm FOs, and field fortifications. They'd have trenches, AT mines, and wire. Then they'd get support from a small reserve. For the non-dug in ones, you'd have 2 companies and wouldn't have the fortifications, and the armor support forms might be marginally more likely.

As for the PAK portion, there were plenty of 50mm PAK still around, and even a fair number of 37mms at the time of Kursk. Understand that German IDs had their PAK in two distinct places - the divisional Panzerjaeger battalion, which had up to date pieces, and the PAK companies of each infantry regiment, which tended to get the cast offs and stuff a year old. Individual IDs also transitioned from old patterns to new at different times, and scraped by in the meantime with ad hoc methods. The variety is large and few conform complelely to any of the various TOEs.

In the fall of 1943, the ideal pattern was for the divisional Pz Jgrs to have 2 companies of PAK 40 each with 12 pieces, with the 3rd company equipped with light Flak. The regimental companies would have, typically, 9 50mm PAK each (using platoons of 3 rather than 4). (Sometimes the 1st platoon in each regiment's company had "French 75s", the Pak 97/38). Good IDs had that or some approximation to it.

Some though had older weapon mixes, and might have only a handful of PAK 40s, PAK 76 ®, and 97/38, sometimes only enough for one company of the Pz Jgr battalion to have such pieces. The rest of the Pz Jgrs had 50mm PAK, and there were still 37s in the regiments, only the first platoons having 50mm.

E.g. the weakest ID at Kursk had 7 PAK 40 and 3 PAK 97/38 ® in its entire Pz Jgr battalion (organized as lead batteries in each company), and 12 50mm PAK in the regiments (again 1st battery in each company), plus 27 of the old 37mms (12 in the regiments and 15 in the Pz Jgrs). It was simply still in the transition from old uniform 37s as in 1941.

By later in the fall, more of the divisions would have transitioned to 2 strong companies in the Pz Jgrs and 50mms in the regiments.

It was rare at this stage for the IDs to have Marders. That became much more common in 1944, with the 1st company of each divisional Pz Jgr battalion typically getting those, while the regimental companies transitioned to one battery of PAK 40s and loads of panzerschrecks for the remaining platoons. That kept the towed PAK about the same in each division, and dropped the 50s for schrecks. Sometimes you'd still see the 50s in the regimental companies, though, even late. In 1944, the best units had a StuG company in place of Marders, as the 1st company of the Pz Jgr regiment.

Mostly, IDs saw StuGs in the form of independent StuG brigades assigned to army or corps, and then run around from hot-spot to hot-spot as linebackers. A corps or division directly in the path of a major offensive might see a StuG brigade on day two.

On a fight of the scale you are talking about, that would translate to a single StuG, to one StuG platoon, and typically arriving as reinforcements after the attack was well underway, rather than in position at the start.

The few divisions that had organic Marders in their Pz Jgr battalions would do the same thing locally with their own, which would translate into pairs or platoons of those doing the same thing. Higher StuG support was somewhat more common, however. It just came later in the course on an offensive.

One other thing about front line guns and PAK schemes. The Germans were perfectly willing to incorporate their divisional artillery into their AT defenses, and particularly so in the IDs with weaker, older PAK. It was perfectly normal for a regimental KG to have a battalion of 105s permanently attached, and to form its strongpoints at the MLR or regimental reserve line, around either the whole thing or the separate batteries. In CM terms, sometimes the on map guns will be 4 105mm howitzers with 6-12 HC each, rather than heavy PAK.

There were also modest numbers of leIG and light Flak incorporated directly into the defensive strongpoints. The scarcer and much more valuable sIG would typically be firing indirect when on defense. (Sometimes those were replaced by 120mm mortars, anyway, or were simply missing altogether).

So some examples -

dug in

infantry company (regulars, standard grenadiers)

+4 HMG 42 (six all told)

2 MG log bunkers

1 schreck, 2 tank hunter

2 PAK 40

1 20mm Quad Flak

veteran or crack sharpshooter

1 105mm line FO

2-3 TRPs

8-12 trenches

6-10 AT mines

20-24 wire

plus reaction reserve -

veteran jager platoon with veteran schreck

veteran 105mm radio FO

a variant with weaker PAK but a StuG reinforcement would be -

1 76mm® capture Russian heavy PAK

2 50mm PAK

1 75mm le IG with 6-12 HC

add 1 veteran StuG III (middle) to reaction reserve.

For attack odds, the 2nd 105mm FO can be a line FO and start on the map, TRPs can go to 4, and a 4th infantry platoon can start on map, making the reserve a 5th.

Without fortifications, less prepared. These forces should still have some form of defensible terrain, not just open steppe. A village would be a common case. Woods or a rocky hill would also serve.

2 infantry companies

+4 HMGs makes 8 total

4 81mm on map

2 105mm FO (line)

2 schreck, 4 tank hunter

2 PAK 40

1 quad 20 AA or 2 20mm single or 1 le IG

Marder support variant, add 2 Marder III early as reinforcements. PAK might be 1 PAK 40 and 2 50mm PAK38.

Div arty variant. Drop 1 105mm FO, replace with 4 on map 105mm howitzer, each with 6-12 HC. PAK limited to 2 50mm PAK, no heavy. 3 schrecks and 5 THs.

The defense scheme is to emplace HMGs alone or in pairs, in natural or trench cover, with long LOS over open approaches. Spotters for 81mm on map and the 105mm FOs and TRPs are sighted at the bodies of cover between these open stretches. Together those provide a stealthy anti-infantry ranged fire defense extending out to 500 yards or more. The 81s also have the mission of KOing any enemy guns overwatching and firing direct etc.

The PAK are in cover or entrenched and cross their fire ahead of the MG positions. 50mms in particular need to go on the extreme flanks to ensure high crossing angle. 75 PAK can be more centrally located and farther to the rear.

Infantry platoon positions are interspersed with the HMG positions, but are in reserve slope or back positions when possible. They include schrecks and THs for anti-armor ambush, but their main role is to deny bodies of cover to the enemy infantry by their physical presence, and short range fire into the open immediately in front of them.

The reaction reserves are to shore up the weakest part of the line by just taking a defensive position behind anything broken and taken before they arrive. If the conditions are favorable, a 105mm strike is put down on the leading enemy body of cover, and the reserve platoon - perhaps with the nearest already present, perhaps not - rushes the place behind the barrage, as a local counterattack.

Reserve armor if available hunts enemy armor after it arrives, and plugs holes in the AT net created by loss of a heavy PAK.

When to unmask the heavy PAK is a key decision in this sort of defense. They start off on short vehicle arcs, biding their time. They need a very good target to reveal themselves. They do not open fire just because an enemy tank is firing at something. Infantry hit by tank fire has to solve the immediate problem itself by skulking to dead ground.

AT minefields, hiding tank hunters, and schrecks with limited ~150m LOS (to avoid enemy overwatch), try to whittle down the enemy tanks before the PAK show themselves. And to contain them if or when the PAK are lost.

The other key decision is when and where to use the artillery fire. It should not be wasted early at long range. Instead it should wait for the fattest targets of whole companies stuffed into limited bodies of cover, to shelter from MG fire and form up to assault a German infantry position, etc.

The squad infantry should be spending most of the time hiding, not firing. It opens only to KO infantry closely approaching their own positions. Once they beat the first such approach, they remain up and firing (but are expected to be shredded by enemy fire) or they relocate to an alternate firing position, by a covered rear exit.

[JasonC]

A note on Marders for IDs and the reason for the 1944 date. Marders were around in 1942 and common in 1943. But they were valuable enough at those times they were mostly found in the mobile divisions, in their Panzerjaeger battalions. Typically 1st company in each. What changes in 1944 is the improved Pz Jgr vehicles appear, the Jadgpanzer in particular. StuGs also became much more numerous when the turreted Pz IIIs were discontinued in mid 1943, and those also replaced Marders in the Panzer divisions.

The cast off Marders were all given to the IDs, at that point. Later in mid 1944, the PDs pretty much all had Jadgs, and the IDs started to get StuGs in the first companies of their Pz Jgr battalions.

PD Pz Jgrs, ID Pz Jgr 1st companies, rest of ID Pz Jgrs, and ID regimental companies, in turn got the better weapons and handed the last variety on to the next. That is a pattern that left 50mm PAK in the hands of the regimental PAK companies toward the end of the war. Some still had them at the end. The other very late war development was from the other end - as schrecks and better fausts became available in large numbers, they equipped the 2nd and 3rd platoons of the regimental ID PAK companies. In the VG pattern IDs they replaced the towed PAK entirely at the regimental company level - those became pure infantry AT formations.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Just to clarify which StuGs we are talking about for '43 after Kursk. These are ones with long 75mm and 50mm or 80mm front?

cheers

[JasonC]

50mm front StuGs are a thing of the past by 1943, as are the short barrel variety.

Avoid the "early mid" variety with 30+50 armor, because it is overmodeled and unrealistic. The "mid" variety with single 80mm is OK. (Still overmodeled, but as long as you don't use to many of them etc).

[Der Alte Fritz]

Noted. I was concerned about the balance of the Tank Corps scenario. Using the 5000 point force, armour forces are: 21 T-34 4 SU-122 1 IL-2. They are attacking against the StuG - PAK - Shreck option above with armour forces of 3 StuG IIIG mid 3 PAK 40 and 3 Shreck plus 2 50mm PAK instead of air cover. On a large open map, I would reckon to lose half the T-34s to this line up as the Stormovik would take care of at least one StuG. Does this sound balanced or should I swap the StuGs for Marders?

Infantry breakthrough scenario looks quite balanced. Used the "Dug in infantry" listed above against 1 green Russian Bn supported by 4 KV-1 and extra artillery. Russian has to be careful but once the AT guns are gone KVs can blast through the fixed defences.

cheers

[JasonC]

25 AFVs vs. 3 + 3 StuG and heavy PAK is balanced enough, you don't have to worry about the StuGs being too "uber" against those kind of odds.