Stalin's Organ Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Hi - I last played SC under v1.02, and decided it was pretty much beer & pretzels. I've been reviewing the 1.07 changes and they look pretty good, but I was wondering if the nature of the game has changed significantly since 1.02 (as opposed to the details of gameplay)? Ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marklavar Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 It's still 'beer and pretzels', which is a shame because the game concept has HUGE potential. Hopefully, SC2 will be a much more 'serious' affair. What the game needs is a lot more detail, but without the lunatic micromanagement you see in 'Hearts of Iron'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 I believe the two of you have your definitions of "easy" and "beer and pretzels" confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted November 1, 2003 Author Share Posted November 1, 2003 Mark's definition sounds much like what I expect - "beer & pretzel" games are always easy, but not all easy games are "beer & pretzel". One way to be beer & pretzel it also has to be relatively engaging on the surface but ultimately lacking as a simulation. Humorous games are also usually B&P (Wabbit Wampage, Awful Green things from Outer Space). For wargames tho, IMO it means a relatively shallow treatment of the subject suitable for entertainment for a little while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 This game does get redundant quickly vs. the AI or even vs. Humans. But if you have an open mind you can play the many mods that have been created that offer variety to some extent. In the end the lack of an extensive editor is what the game is missing. This was Hubert 1st game, so it was a learning experience and he still did an excellent job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 One way to be beer & pretzel it also has to be relatively engaging on the surface but ultimately lacking as a simulation. That statement is why we disagree. But its no biggie. We're not all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les the Sarge 9-1 Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Some people will look at a wargame and mistakenly call it "easy" or "beer and pretzels" the second they are not required to upgrade their computer to play it, or required to think while playing it. That is NOT applicable to SC. It won't force you to upgrade your computer, so what. Sure you can play SC right out of the box without reading the manual. And guess what, the AI on easy setting will hand you your head on a platter. And it will do it again, and again, and again, and again. The only thing version 1.07 offers over 1.02 to the best of my knowledge, is tweaks to make the game more accurate, more effective etc. It hasn't drastically altered the game for the most part. Calling SC easy though, is like calling chess easy. Sure SC is not a game of Advanced Third Reich, but then again, that comment could be applied to every computer grand strategy game I have ever played. You want that 1.07 patch, the same way you would likely not want to play Steel Panthers 4.2 when you can play Steel Panthers 7.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC Baxter Posted November 2, 2003 Share Posted November 2, 2003 This "beer and pretzels" thing has always amused me. It's as if a game can be simple and fun and it's valued only as mere entertainment whilst other games are serious and not fun to play but offer some great level of detail and simulation but remain a "chore", the wargamer's equivalent of hacking away at the coal face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 As any old timer will tell you, the whole "beer and pretzels" terminology came about, because certain boardgames had rules written as if they were a legal document. Most wargaming magazines that supported those games really were nothing more than a "Dummies Guide on What the Rules Really Mean". Third Reich, even in its latest reincarnation as World at War, is a good example. B&P games were those that had simple rules and more importantly, rules that you remembered after you were drunk or stoned. The problem is, after a few plays, there was nothing left. But even back in the old days, certain games had well written rules that were easy to learn and remember. Since they usually required multiple players, the designers took care to make sure that even a beginner could play the game well the first time. While computers have changed some of the concepts (since the rules are now hidden from us), it still hasn't changed the fact that a poorly designed game, once mastered, has no replayability value. So while Chess and SC are both easy to learn, because of the infinite varity of moves that the different units can take, as well as the unpredictable effects of combat and tech in SC (not to mention supply), they are both games that you can easily teach someone, but can never truly say you have mastered. [ November 02, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC Baxter Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Great post Shaka. The origin of "beer and pretzels" in now clear. Thanks. And I agree with you about SC. Easy to learn, difficult to master, to use the cliche. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 I was wondering if the nature of the game has changed significantly Let's recap the significant changes that have affected the nature of the game: Changes Made For v1.07 (June 20, 2003) - Yugoslavian Coup now has a greater link to Axis actions taken against Greece, can still happen if Greece not invaded but less likely - US interest in war tweaked to also take into greater account attacks on Portugal and Iraq on top of the previous settings for Vichy, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland - Spain tweaked to react to an Allied invasion of Portugal, may now join Axis - added a 2 city supply system for the UK (London and Manchester) similar to 3 city supply system added in v1.06 for the USSR, counters gamey cutoff of London during Sea Lion Changes Made For v1.06 (December 3, 2002) Normalized research via 5->4->3->2->1 slow down and relationship with enemy research levels to represent captured equipment, spying, etc. - removal of research chits now acts as a reclamation with 50% cost - added South Atlantic/Suez Canal transport loop via new UK Suez port - Soviet partisans now inflict a supply penalty by reducing the strength (variably) of any captured Soviet resource within 6 hexes when they first appear, simulates behind the line supply disruptions etc. - USA, Italy and the USSR now declare war on their opposite turns to take full advantage on their own turn - reduced Industrial Technology effectiveness from 10% to 5% - added increased Soviet war readiness to balance out German tactic of destroying Polish units but not taking Warsaw, earlier annexation of Baltic States also possible as well as a slight bump in initial Soviet start MPP's - adjusted French surrender rule for excessive evacuation of French mainland to avoid gamey strategies, France now surrenders once Paris is captured regardless of available French forces remaining Changes Made For v1.05 (October 22, 2002) - tweaked Siberian Transfer triggers to weigh the Stalingrad/Caucuses area a bit more Changes Made For v1.04 (September 4, 2002) - improved AI planning and assessment of priorities, decisions should be slightly more intuitive - slight delay and better coordination for Allied amphibious assaults (units properly line along port areas prior to initial amphibious launch) - fixed supply linking for HQ's, friendly HQ's can act as supply sources for each other - US amphibious planning after UK surrender improved, limits fruitless attempts Changes Made For v1.03 (August 17, 2002) - improved AI usage of air units, slightly more coordinated and aggressive - improved amphibious assaults wrt naval cover, air cover and HQ usage - friendly aircraft now provide air cover for each others units etc., this was actually part of the original design and always considered a bug on my part - adjusted reorganization planning for improved proactive defence, esp. Russia In summary, the various changes made have been to improve historical accuracy and reduce many unrealistic aspects of the game. It's still an abstract game with limitations that will just have to wait until resolved in SC2, but it's more challenging now than it was back in v1.02. Players need to carefully think through their strategies to win. It's a notch or two above the beer & pretzels rating and well worth playing still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Thanks for the comments everyone (and the history lesson Shaka!! I think I must've had too much beer in my ol' gaming sessions...... ) The main reason I asked was to see if it might be worth erloading SC & playing a campaign or 2 with the upgrade while awaiting other games like CMAK and RTW - I think I'll try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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