cyclem Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 I read a lot of the strategy articles in this forum, and many have been very usefull. For both sides. I can win with both sides at "normal", but when I give the AI +50% bonus and +1 experience, I always get defeated on the Russian front? I control Spain, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Vichy French. When I start the war against Russia, I usually have 3 HQ, 10 armies, 2-3 tanks, 3 air fleets. Most of them have decent experience. My problem is that all Russian reinforcement start with 1 experience. Every unit that I lose will start with 0 experience. Russia generally builds 4 corps, and I usually destroy 2-3 units per turn. So at some point, attribution really kills me. Over time, the overall experience of my troops goes down, and the Russian one goes up. How do you deal with this ? I also find that keeping the pressure against England with air fleets is really expensive. In my latest game, I had 5 air fleets attacking England regularly, versus air fleet or strat bomber. Reinforcing those 5 air fleets every 2 turn is really expensive (around 400+ MPP). Is it worth the expense? Cost wise, I destroy a 400 MPP unit (air fleet) and it costs me the same amount. One would argue that it is worth it, my air fleet do gain some experience with time, but all MPP used on the Eastern front are very much needed on the Russian front. What do you do against AI with +1 experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82ndReady Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 cyclem -------- In my opinion leave Britain alone unless you intend on invading her! You can take care of her later if Russia falls? Russia is still hard to take when in the hands of a good allied player so most of your forces will be fighting/defending the good fight there and not on the western front! As for Russia, your force is way to small! I have beaten the "AI" at every level but with Normal Bonus! Again the AI can never replace that of a Human, so if you would like email me your opening AXIS move @ redy82nd@pacbell.net for PBEM ! [ November 18, 2002, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: 82ndReady ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John DiFool Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Ah, the "Rope a Dope" strategy vis a vis the RAF: Let him bomb whatever ports and resources he wants, with the theory being that it will cost him more to repair his planes than it will cost you in lost production. Germany starts with one point of AA tech; if you can spare a point of two somewhere along the line and bump that up to 2 or 3, the RAF is basically rendered a non-factor. If you don't spend anything on AA, however, all that experience that his air units (and associated HQs!) will accumulate will end up hurting you when Overlord comes along. I'm not sure if stationing a few interceptors there is worth it: now because of the "interceptors take more damage than attackers" feature, you as Germany will have to be continually spending MPPs for upkeep of your air units, and they will probably need an HQ to help them out, and those things can hardly be spared from the Russian Front. John DiFool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 John has a good point. Against the AI (which loves airplanes), I've decided it's worth 250 MPPs to buy a research point in AA rather than take 250+ MPPs in damage trying to fight the Brits off. Focus on Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 As originally posted by John DiFool: I'm not sure if stationing a few interceptors there is worth it: now because of the "interceptors take more damage than attackers" feature, you as Germany will have to be continually spending MPPs for upkeep of your air units I'm not convinced that the interceptors do indeed take more damage than the attackers. IIRC, Hubert has already stated that it is NOT the case, and lacking sufficient evidence to the contrary, I am inclined to agree. I have played many games, both solo and VS human opponents, and I would suggest that it might very well be better to actively contest any Allied bombing strategem. If you keep your most experienced and highest rated HQ in northern France, along with your 2 or 3 most experienced Air Fleets, you can effectively counter any Allied bombing campaign. This serves two purposes: 1) Prevents Allied Air Fleets from gaining easy & excessive experience, and 2) Provides Axis HQ and AFs with additional experience. At the least, and more usually, both sides AFs remain about the same in experience levels, since they tend to whittle each other down. You can then either keep one or two there to counter premature (... at least by the AI) invasion of Brest area, or transfer most to the East Front where they will prove plenty powerful indeed. Now, this will prevent other uses of the Air Fleets, but I have found that they are not really needed elsewhere -- until Barbarossa. They are marginally effective in Sweden. A one-turn conquest of Norway surely would require their use, but I will often fly what is required up to northern Denmark (without using expensive Operational moves) and then fly them back to northern France. I would agree that Strategic Bombing could use some tweaking, which will likely have to wait for SC2, but there are ALWAYS counter-ploys that you might enact, especially in regard to Air experience. Why would you want to just let the Allied Air build up massive amounts of experience for their AFs and SBs? When the invasion of Fortress Europa occurs, it is then extremely difficult to counter those vastly experienced Allied Air units. Forgot to add: very true that researching AA (AND achieving some advances!) is also quite helpful. Against the AI, I routinely invest at least one chit in AA. Against human opponents, it all depends on their choice of air doctrines. [ November 18, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 If the Royal Navy suffers heavy losses early on, you might want to at least cross the channel and grab London. Even if you're preparing a Russian invasion this can usually be done without much trouble; station a couple of armies and two luftflottes there with a weak HQ, preferably one of the sixes. That effectively takes Britain out of the nuisance category. From that stage, as things calm down in Russia, you can add a unit or two to Britain and force them back to the hilly country south of Manchester, if you don't actually finish her completely you'll at least have little to worry about when America enters the war. Usually, after London falls, the push north is comparatively easy as long as it isn't done recklessly. In this whole thing I've been talking in terms of an Allied AI -- naturally, against a human you can't anticipate any particular behavior. [ November 18, 2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 As originally posted by JerseyJohn: In this whole thing I've been talking in terms of an Allied AI -- naturally, against a human you can't anticipate any particular behavior. Boy, that's for sure JJ! Would be nice if the AI would just act like stand-up, face to face, straight shooting humans! That way, if something was gone wrong, or somehow misunderstood, then you wouldn't have to deal with arcane and obtuse messages, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Exactly, Immers, why the hell can't human opponents behave more like androids? :eek: [ November 18, 2002, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Exactly, Immers, why the hell can't human opponents behave more like androids? Hmmm, wasn't I? Brrrr, beep. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by cyclem: I read a lot of the strategy articles in this forum, and many have been very usefull. For both sides. I can win with both sides at "normal", but when I give the AI +50% bonus and +1 experience, I always get defeated on the Russian front?Me never Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by cyclem: I read a lot of the strategy articles in this forum, and many have been very usefull. For both sides. I can win with both sides at "normal", but when I give the AI +50% bonus and +1 experience, I always get defeated on the Russian front? I control Spain, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Vichy French. When I start the war against Russia, I usually have 3 HQ, 10 armies, 2-3 tanks, 3 air fleets. When I start the war against russia, i usually have manstein, rommel, kesselring, model, kleist and maybe leeb and 9 armies, 9 tanks, 7-10 airfleets, some rockets are also nice. Even with comp AI +2 exp i destroy the mass of their army right at the border in the first turn - what the F*CK is your problem hm, but its been a while since the last game against AI, human opponent is more fun anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hans-micael Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 JayJay_H I wonder how you can scoop up that kind of MPP's have you conquered your potential allies or just played at the easy level. When you play at expert you will find it harder to grab the bounty to pay for your units - and 10 airwings! Where did you find 2800 MPPs and how many HQ's? 6 2200 MPPs, and not including Rundstedt and Bock seems to be a bit out the ordinary. And then you can afford to buy tanks another 1600-1800 MPPs. And os forth - please send any Battlefield reports that can explain how this is possible. Looking forward to hearing from Neverland... Hans-Micael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclem Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 JayJay_H, No offense but I have to agree with hans_micael. How can you build such an army that would cost 6000+ MPP? I'm my games, I don't lose any units prior to the conflict with Russia and I don't even come close to a 1/3 of your units. And I only spend 5 points (1250 MPP) on research. I do have 5 airfleet on the Eastern front, and spend MPP regularly to reinforce them, but nothing in the MPP level you have. Why don't you post a save game? That would clarify the situation. Something tells me you play at normal difficulty level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wachtmeister Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Just finished an AI as game as AXIS at Expert difficulty +2 & AI experience bonus +1. Some what to my surprise the axis won fairly easily - USSR surrendered late '43, USA and Canada mid '44 and the UK Dec.'44 for a score of 373. I had previously beaten the Allies at this level, but usually had a much tougher fight right into late '45 or early '46. Without going into a long, turn by turn, AAR, offer the following summary. 1. Take Denmark by the 4th turn - research Industrial Tech with the plunder 2. Attack and take the Low Countries in Dec. '39. research another Industrial Tech, and save up for a 4th air fleet. 3. Hit the front line french units hard on the next turn with a maximum air support - all air units. Next turn, the german position was consolidated and the (4) air fleets moved up as far as possible. Thereafter, the french units were destroyed one or two at a time with support from two air units. The other two air units attacked the UK and French Air Force after they were weakened by the forced interception. This resulted in eventual elimination of the UK fighter, and serious damage to the UK bomber and French Fighter. France fell on the July 14,'40 turn with Italy entering the previous turn. 4. After the fall of France, The Germans went into a research and build up mode, while the Italians attacked and destroyed the UK Med. fleet and took Egypt, with the help of one Luftwaffe unit. During this period, the Germans maintained three(later 4) air fleets on the west coast with two attacking the London port and the remainder hitting any Allied air or naval units within range. Got a quick reurn on an investiment of two research points in long range air which allowed the complete supression of Allied air in the west. No minor countries were attacked except Yugosalvia to speed the entry of the Balkan minors on the Axis side. All three came on board during the attack on Yugoslavia. Since little had been done to awaken the Russian Bear, they were still at only about 80% war readiness in July '41 The German Situation was as follows: Research Industrial Tech - invested - 4 level achieved - 3 (invested early and often) Jets - invested - 2 level achieved +1 (11) Long range air - invested - 2 level achieved - +1 (11) German order of battle: West Front - 1 HQ, 1 Air 3 Corps Med. Front 1 air - lent to Italy then attacking Iraq. Russian Front - 4 HQ, 4 Air, 5 Armor, 8 Armies, 5 Corps - Plus most of the Balkan minor forces. 5. In Aug '42 I got a little greedy adding one Armor, one Corps and one air fleet, so that Russia attacked me in Sept' 41. Finland declared war on Russia the next turn. I resisted the temptation to reload a save and played it out, finding that the Russian initiative (and extra MPPs) did not hurt as much as anticipated. the USSR retreated all but two of their front line armies, but rushed their tanks forward to attack my front line. The subsequent German attack wiped out both German tanks, and all but two of the front line infantry. The veteran air units also seriously weakened the Russian air when they intercepted. 6. The subsequent success of the Russian campaign apparently resulted from the following factors. A. Use of higher mobility units (Armor and Corps) to advance as far as possible and cut off Riga, Minsk Kiev and Odessa. Some over extended Corps may get punished or (rarely) eliminated, but you cut down on the Russian tactic of operating units into every city that is under attack and has an adjacent empty hex or two. Include some Corps when buying reinforcements and use them as secondary exploitation units, not just garrisons. B The extra range of the German air (+2 by late '42) was a key for suppressing Russian air and reaching out farther for critical ground support. C. Italy's nearly completed attack on Iraq caused the operating of a Russian army to Iraq -one less to oppose the Germans. Later Italian Corps were able to provide a distraction and take some oil wells in the south. D. When you approach the trigger for the Siberian army transfer, consolidate and reinforce to the max. Also make sure your HQ's are positioned to supply the advanced forces, and that newly built HQ's are set up in a chain back to supply sources. Move the air fleets up to intercept and, later, supress the additional Soviet air. The Siberian army at this level is pretty massive - something like 3 HQ, 3 Air, 3 Armor, 5 Armies, 6 Corps.[units were spawining so fast I'm not sure of the count] Fortunately the AI did not seem to use them all that agressively. E. As soon as possible, extend units to the east map edge both north and south of Stalingrad. This prevents shifting of forces from south to north and seems to deprive the USSR of the southern MPP's Also move one or two Finnish Corps to the resource hexes behind the Urals to prevent a build up of Soviet forces around thier cities of last resort. F. During the Russian campaign, the Italians alternately researched Industrial Tech and acquired 2 HQ's, 2 Armor, and 4 Armies for the defense of France. With two German air from the east and one air build, this force easily repulsed the attempted invasion of France in mid-'43. After the Russian surrender it was just a matter of moving the now massive and experienced German forces to the west, siezing Turkey, Greece, Sweden, and Norway on the way. The Italians also siezed Vichy France, Spain and Portugal. Most of the plunder went into building carriers and air fleets, along with some subs for screening attacks on Canada and the USA. Canada was taken first to provide an air base to aid in the demise of the USA. Ireland was also taken to provide air bases for pounding the nothern UK. It appears that early increases and industrial technology and long range air were the key "luck" factors contributing to success. However I did enhance my chances by investing 3 research "chits" in IT before the fall of 1940 and 4 by the end of 1940. Hope the foregoing information is of some use. I plan to go back and replay the game with a first attack on the USSR to see what, if any, difference it makes. I was quite surprised that I did not pay a greater penalty for allowing the Soviets to attack first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by hans-micael: JayJay_H I wonder how you can scoop up that kind of MPP's have you conquered your potential allies or just played at the easy level. When you play at expert you will find it harder to grab the bounty to pay for your units - and 10 airwings! Where did you find 2800 MPPs and how many HQ's? 6 2200 MPPs, and not including Rundstedt and Bock seems to be a bit out the ordinary. And then you can afford to buy tanks another 1600-1800 MPPs. And os forth - please send any Battlefield reports that can explain how this is possible. Looking forward to hearing from Neverland... Hans-MicaelYep, no problem hans, i could show up some screenshots here. And the reason for a so massive build up is: i concentrate loads of units at the russo-german border so their join value lets them prepare war about autumn 1942 - then i'm unstoppable. For the faithless among you i#d like to put in some screenshots here...how does that work anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by cyclem: JayJay_H, No offense but I have to agree with hans_micael. How can you build such an army that would cost 6000+ MPP? I'm my games, I don't lose any units prior to the conflict with Russia and I don't even come close to a 1/3 of your units. And I only spend 5 points (1250 MPP) on research. I do have 5 airfleet on the Eastern front, and spend MPP regularly to reinforce them, but nothing in the MPP level you have. Why don't you post a save game? That would clarify the situation. Something tells me you play at normal difficulty level.NP, but i think the simple answer is: need to be lucky with Industrial Technology research Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by cyclem: JayJay_H, Something tells me you play at normal difficulty level.*LOL* i played dozens of times at normal, but got bored then and made it the hard way understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 cyclem, wanted to email you a saved game as you proposed, your address aint available though hmmmmmmmm wished i knew how to get screenshots in here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hans-micael Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 It's still a mystery to me how you get the MPP - but I agree on the massive build up - but please mail me a saved game that might clarify the situation somewhat... Hans-Micael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hans-micael Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 I rest my case! JJ clarified the matter - playing without FOW and UNDO transforms SC into the shooting gallery of an arcade game - correct me if I'm wrong. I find it a tad more challenging to play with the more difficult prefs on - that includes FOW UNDO RANDOM on all etc. But anyone to his liking - SC is a great game Hans-Micael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 JJ clarified the matter - playing without FOW and UNDO Strap that lad into the Vargon poetry appreciation chair and let him have it. Nobody plays without FOW and UNDO and gets away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Originally posted by hans-micael: I rest my case! JJ clarified the matter - playing without FOW and UNDO Hans-MicaelUNDO on -depends on pbem opponent preferences FOW always off In that saved file you got , i enable options to be changed so for the last few turns i put FOW off when the game is over anyway no offense but any questions you poor doubter [ November 20, 2002, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hans-micael Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 I don't play with that option on - because you don't have to in order to win... But then again its your game and not mine... Hans-Micael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Originally posted by hans-micael: I don't play with that option on - because you don't have to in order to win... But then again its your game and not mine... Hans-MicaelOk another question did you ever gain 500+ victory points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 I beat the allies whereever they show up crawling out of their stinking holes to get the next low-down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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