Game Question: Bulgaria

[BriantheWise]

I've noticed that Rumania and Hungary "join"

the Axis in the game. But Bulgaria "signs a military pact" with the Axis.

Historically, this is true, as I recall, wherein the Bulgarians allowed the Germans to have rights of passage through Bulgaria and even contributed their military to the conquest of Yugoslavia and Greece, but, as I recall, did not/refused to, participate in the attack on Russia.

In game terms, what is the difference, if any? I think the armies (corps) can still attack Russia, if they can actually be spared. But is there a difference in the MPP values?

It's a trivial question, I suppose, and an excellent observation of history, but I'm curious.

Thanks in advance.

[JerseyJohn]

Interesting topic.

You're right on all counts. Historically the Bulgarians limited their activities to the Balkans and didn't send troops to Russia.

In the game you're free to do anything with them you choose.

The Balkans at this time was an interesting place.

Historically there had to always be German troops seperating Hungarian and Romanian troops, that's how fond they were of each other (Transylvania, which is actually pretty large, was a disputed territory between the two).

In the game the Bulgarian Army starts off on the Romanian border, so I guess they didn't get along very well with them either.

The Royal families ruling Greece and Yugoslavia were related by marriage and tried to allign with each other. Before the war Mussolini wanted both places but couldn't quite figure out how to do it.

Czar Boris of Albania asked Italy for protection and Mussolini decided to invade him as his troops arrived. An Italian General described it, to paraphrase it politely, as forcing your wife to make whuppy with you!

Earlier Greece and Turkey had fought a bitter war and through all of this insanity, jealousy and mistrust, every once in a while they attempted to form a Balkan League!

[Hueristic]

Intersesting history. I know nothing about that are so Thanks for the posts guys

[BriantheWise]

Hi Jersey John

Thanks for the feedback.

About five years ago, I married a Rumanian, and of course, had to read up on the Rumanian history. I was totally amazed at how many little wars that Rumania, Poland, Hungary and even Yugoslavia and Turkey had thoughout the 1920's.

I think there about ten armed conflicts.

It was amazing then, and amazing up until about 1990, how much they all hated each other. I'm from the US (though Danish), and I'm amazed at our own little hatreds. Over there, it's much more virulent. They have a longer sense of history than us, and how the Turks favored one set of peoples over another.

I'm not going to all political here, because this isn't the forum for it, but that whole baltic region has a wild historical path, alot of nationalism (though now less so), and, on a lighter side, really really great food. It's a very overlooked culture.

I'm typing sentences and retracting them, because if I start, this would be a very long, and educational post. So I'll leave it at this:

History is interesting, and it's not just England, France and Germany.

nuf sed

[JerseyJohn]

Hueristic and Brian --

Enjoyed this post a lot, glad you created it and pleased some things I put in were of interest.

Balkan history really is amazing. At this point I get the impression it was just like the 20s all the way back throughout the centuries. Even Vlad the Impaler all those hundreds of years ago had to twist and turn according to shifting allegiences and political intrigues and sit on a fence between the Ottomans and the Hungarians.

Bri -- you have a really interesting situation there! Denmark in WW II produced one of my favorite quotes. Hitler always respected Royalty, though he talked contemptuously of Kings when he was sitting in Berlin. A year or so after invading Denmark, he sent von Neurath or one of his other toadies to Copenhaagen with a gentle suggestion for it's monarch. The toadie very diplomatically said it would be wise idea if Denmark and Germany shared the same government. The King (can't remember his name) said, "Oh, thank you, it's very flattering but at my age I couldn't possibly handle Germany too!"

[David Brown]

Re Denmark in WWII: Another stirring, but alas, untrue story about the Danish King, Christian X, has to do with the persecution of Jews in Denmark.

In 1943 Germany completely took over the Danish government after allowing it a great deal of self-rule after the 1940 invasion. The Germans ordered that all Danish Jews had to wear the infamous yellow stars identifying them as Jews. The next day the King wore a yellow star while out on his morning ride, and shortly thereafter much of the non-Jewish population followed suit. The Germans were forced to rescind the order.

Alas, no such thing happened. The story is indicative of Christian's character and of the feelings the Danes had for him, but the Germans had decided for various reasons not to issue the order.

On the other hand, the Danes did rescue the vast majority of their Jewish population. When the Germans decided to round up Danish Jews Danes from all walks of life spontaneously managed to help over 7,000 Jews flee the country to Sweden. Only about 460 were eventually deported to a concentration camp, and most of them survived the war. A short article on this can be found at

The King of Denmark and the Yellow Star.

[David Brown]

Since the title of this thread is 'Bulgaria', and I talked about Denmark and its Jews, I should add a bit about the role of Bulgaria in the Holocaust. In short, the Bulgarian government and King opposed the transportation of its Jews to concentration camps during the war. There were 50,000 Bulgarian Jews when the war started, and 50,000 when the war ended. Bulgaria introduced anti-Semitic legislation under Nazi pressure (Jews had to perform forced labour, had to wear the yellow star, and other such indignities), but not fiercely so. On the other hand, Bulgaria did expel Jews from the areas of Yugoslavia and Greece they helped Germany conquer. Overall, however, Bulgaria performed well. Two links I can suggest: Bulgaria for an overview, and The Righteous Among Nations: Bulgaria for biographical notes.

[JerseyJohn]

David Brown

Two great postings! Always sorry to hear a story I like isn't quite true, and in this case it was two of my favorites, but you do it with great consideration so at least the essence of the fable rings true and remains. King Christian seems to have a fine fellow unlike most other monarchs who come to mind.

It was like hearing some months back that the last three fighters on Malta, dubbed Faith, Hope and Charity, was also a bit of a propaganda exaggeration.

Always great to learn things about these normally neglected countries.

The Nazis put intense pressure on all their satallites to expel Jews and I'm glad Bulgaria at least resisted the process. It's also one of the good points Italy had; the German occupation forced some cooperation, but the Italians didn't go along with those policies on their own initiative.

As I said somewhere else, it amazed me to find out the Nazis were even pressuring the Japanese to execute a small group of Jewish Europeans who'd escaped to Shanghai (it may have been a different coastal city, Hong Kong [?], but I'm fairly certain it was Shanghai.

The Japanese, normaly not noted at the time for cherishing human life, refused on the grounds that the Jews had become ideal citizens and helped the local flow of commerce. The cynic in me says that translates to heavy bribes, but it had to go beyond that even if corruption was a factor. Anyway, the point is if the Nazis were obsessed enough to exert pressure on the other side of the globe, it's easy to imagine how it must have been as a neighbor attempting to protect tens of thousands they desperately wanted to see in concentration camps.

[VictorH]

Originally posted by David Brown:

Since the title of this thread is 'Bulgaria', and I talked about Denmark and its Jews, I should add a bit about the role of Bulgaria in the Holocaust. In short, the Bulgarian government and King opposed the transportation of its Jews to concentration camps during the war. There were 50,000 Bulgarian Jews when the war started, and 50,000 when the war ended. Bulgaria introduced anti-Semitic legislation under Nazi pressure (Jews had to perform forced labour, had to wear the yellow star, and other such indignities), but not fiercely so. On the other hand, Bulgaria did expel Jews from the areas of Yugoslavia and Greece they helped Germany conquer. Overall, however, Bulgaria performed well. Two links I can suggest: Bulgaria for an overview, and The Righteous Among Nations: Bulgaria for biographical notes.

50,000 at the beginning and at the end of the war? Did they know how to reproduce?

[JerseyJohn]

VictorH--

"50,000 at the beginning and at the end of the war? Did they know how to reproduce?"

You mean to say you never read The Last of the Mohigans!

Actually, a Jewish community in either occupied Europe or a German satellite that remained stable was doing extroadinary well. Poland's huge Jewish population was virtually wiped out by the Holocaust, and they weren't alone by a longshot!

[ December 21, 2002, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[David Brown]

Finland had an almost exemplary record with respect to its Jews. Its pre-war Jewish population was approximately 2000. Of that total only seven were sent to Germany (all but one died in Auschwitz) -- they were refugees who had been extradited on criminal charges. The Finnish government apologized for this in 1997. No Jewish property was expropriated.

When Himmler raised the 'question' of Finland's Jews with Field Marshal Mannerheim, Mannerheim said "Not even one single Jewish soldier will be taken from my army to be turned over to Germany. That cannot happen except over my dead body." Three Finnish Jewish soldiers were awarded (but declined to accept) Germany's Iron Cross for valour during the Continuation War against the Soviets.

Of course Finland was an ally of Germany throughout the war rather than a puppet state and could set its own policies. Italian Jews were relatively safe in Italy until after the Germans assumed control, at which point many of them suffered the same fate as their compatriots in the rest of German occupied Europe.

A short reference regarding Finland can be found at Finland.

[David Brown]

VictorH--

"50,000 at the beginning and at the end of the war? Did they know how to reproduce?"

I would be very surprised if they didn't know how to reproduce. As to why the seeming lack of growth, first, 50,000 is a rounded estimate. Second, I don't know what the population growth rate for the Jews of Bulgaria were in the pre-war years for comparison purposes, but population growth currently ranges between roughly -0.5% in some industrialized countries like Japan, and roughly 3.0% in some third world countries. These figures include both births and deaths, and I don't have any reason to doubt that the Bulgarian Jewish community had both births and deaths during the war. If I assume a growth rate of 1% for Bulgarian Jews between 1941 and 1944, that would mean a population increase of just over 1500 people during that time period. Given that the 50,000 figure is an estimate in the first place, 1,500 is not a significant change. What kind of population growth were you expecting?