Iron Ranger Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Rule book Version Notes addition: Turkey: - Hypothetical alliance with Axis if UK near surrender and Balkans/Greek control and favorable status with Fascist minors: Romana, Hungery and Bulgeria. Notes: 1) Greek/Balkin controal means that you must have Italy attack and control these minors (Yugo, Greeks) before England surrenders. 2) Favorable status with Fascist Minors means that Spain can't activate as an Axis minor when London falls (75%?). Because if she does (spain)then Romania and Hungery will not join the fascist, ie Turkey fails its activation check. 3) The time line on this very small, Axis minor start joining after Nov 1940. Bulgaria is normally very late running into spring of 1941. By this time UK has enough time to build enough units to make a Sealion invasion impossiable (unless poorly played). In thinking on this I realised that the only way to gain Turkey is a late sealion after the Balkins join and Yougo coups but before Russia readness gets too high. This leaves you with, what, 4-8 turns in the middle of 1941 and the hope that the UK player put all his money into Tech? Near impossiable! The reason I post this is that in a PBEM game I decided to give this a try and found the time line too small to realisitly be achived without alot of luck. Does anyone know if AFTER UK surrenders the activation chances for Spain and Turkey return to zero? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 I don't like bump my own posts but I would like some feed back and LZ has forced me to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Fenton Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 I have never seen Turkey activated. I have in several games conquered the required countries with Germany, let the minors activate, defeated Russia and then went for and succeeded at Sea Lion. Turkey never became an Axis minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCPilot Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Historicly, Turkey made it's neutrallity treaties so airtight, that not even Hitler could find a loophole. The fact is, Turkey was almost totally neutral and had no intrest in losing even more land than it had the last time it helped Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 When I first started playing and it was only against the AI as Axis, I had Turkey join a few times, always after Sealion and the Italian conquest of Yugoslavia and Greece; I always let Italy take Mediteranean objectives. By then Spain would also be in the Axis. By that time you don't particularly need Turkey. TCPilot Good take, you speak the truth. Hitler wanted badly to have Turkey help out against the USSR, they never really refused but never really said anything encouraging. One reply did actually say something about how they'd made the wrong choice in the previous war. This seems inoccuous until you realize how much equipment Imperial Germany had sent to them and how many of the Kaiser's officers, including generals, were working closely with the Ottoman Army. [ August 05, 2003, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konstantin V. Kotelnikov Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Mmmmmmm Turkey! The sweetest of all Holiday birds! Oh wait the country?!?!?!?!?! I have never had Turkey join in any game. There does seem to be a trick to it that I could never find. Getting it to join the axis is extremely beneficial as it opens a route to the russian oilfields. Sometimes when playing as the axis (expert +2) I found that if the russian front gets stalemated you can declare war on Turkey. This causes the AI to send Red Army units there which usually lets the germans finally overpower a sector of the eastern front and resume the drive. Granted it gives Britian a few extra MPP but sometimes breaking the stalemate is worth it. Of course when playing as the Allies it works the opposite way. The AI sends german/italian units there. I like to do that with spain too. Mmmmmm turkey with gravy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Hartke Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Some of you might find this interesting... Overview: Shortly before WWII, the internal and external policies of the Turkish government began to diverge from the progressive course undertaken by K. Ataturk; subsequently to Ataturk's death in 1938, under combined pressure from reactionary domestic elements and from imperialistic powers, Turkey halted the realization of social reforms while in foreign policy it adopted an anti-Soviet stance. After the eruption of World War II, it announced a declaration of neutrality, and on 19/10/1939 it signed a mutual assistance pact with Great Britain and France. Influenced by the early war triumphs of Nazi Germany, Turkey decided to initiate cooperation with the Axis; on 18/06/1941 it signed a pact of friendship with Third Reich. Subsequently, it provided considerable quantities of strategic raw materials to support the German war effort, including 30% of all chrome needed by Germany. Western powers fruitlessly attempted to persuade Turkey to abandon this Axis-friendly neutrality and to join the Allied cause. Not until 02/08/1944, did Turkey sever diplomatic relations with Nazi Germany; it did the same with Japan on 03/01/1945. On 01/03/1945 it formally declared war on both of these countries, althought, it never fought against them. Turkey is a co-founding member of U.N. http://members.tripod.com/~marcin_w/index-2.html Logan Hartke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Logan Yes, that is interesting. It shows how countries like Sweden, Turkey and Spain, neutral but within Axis reach, had to conduct at least some trade with them in the interest of remaining neutral. This same issue was explored in late November and produced this fine little exchange: I/O Error Member Member # 3649 posted November 20, 2002 11:36 AM Originally posted by JerseyJohn: -- "Wachtmeister. Sorry you couldn't even get a Turkey for thanksgiving." -- *cue snare drum* -- Now cut that out! [ August 06, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Interesting point about the strategic materials. In another topic, we made the same point about Sweden, Norway, Vichy France, Switz and Spain. Those nations (and others) were more valuable to Germany as neutrals than they were as conquests. Same with British and Ireland. We've also debated how we could "fix" the problem. It also makes you wonder about the plunder concept, if that was removed, would some of the incentives to conquer these nations go away. As Bill Macon pointed out, we have a very linear progression on diplomacy. Very much a "if X happens, then Y will happen". In the spirit of playability, not historical accuracy, I have a suggestion. It would be nice if we had a "random or historical" option for the neutrals. Historical plays the way it does now. Random on the other hand, would have the starting "readiness" number of each neutral nation determined at the start of each game. <100%> to 100% for each nation works fine for me. Then the diplomacy ability would allow us to increase or reduce that readiness percentage. This way, depending on the game, Ireland could be Pro-Axis or Pro-Allied. Now, the strategic position of Turkey is key, just like real life, and depending on the conditons, Turkey could enter the conflict on either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Hartke Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Both the Allies and the Axis tried to get Turkey to join their side during WWII. They did this by giving Turkey lots of war material among other things. Turkey gladly accepted all of this equipment, but remained neutral (reminds me of post-WWII Yugoslavia under Tito). On a related note, I'd have hated to have been in parts supply for any branch of the Turkish military. For example, the Turkish Navy consisted of a pre-Revolutionary Russian-built 1903 cruiser, a Kaiser-era German-built 1911 battlecruiser, an ex-Ottoman British-built 1903 cruiser, and a combination of British, Nazi-built German, Italian, and Dutch destroyers and submarines. So, replacement parts had to be ordered from 4 different countries (one occupied, two Allied, one Axis) during WWII, and in the case of the pre-WWI ships, no spares existed, so parts would have to be jury-rigged or fabricated. Also, they had to acquire spare parts for these aircraft... Savoia 16Bis/M/59 Rohrbach Ro.111A Rodra Supermarine Southampton II Supermarine Walrus Mk.II Before you, as naval quartermaster, go off and decide to switch services, let's take a look at Turkey's army. Just focusing on tracked and/or armored vehicles, Turkey had WWI French tanks (1 model), WWII French tanks (1 model), pre-war Soviet tanks (4 different models), WWII German tanks (2 different models), pre-war British tanks (1 model), pre-war Soviet armored cars (2 models), and 4 different models of obscure Czech tracked prime movers. http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Turkey/turkey.html So, you're probably thinking about now, "Sign me up for the air force, then." Well, this was likely the worst of all the services. Here is a list of all the aircraft types (followed by the number of the aircraft that served in the Turkish Air Force)... Caudron C.59 Morane-Saulnier M.S.147 Breguet XIX-B2 Letov S-16T Smolik Breguet XIX-7A-2/7B-2 De Havilland D.H.84 Dragon Curtiss Fledgling 2C.1 Curtiss F11C-2 Hawk II Consolidated Fleet Model 7 Polikarpov R-5 Focke-Wulf FW 58K-10(B-type) Gotha GO 145A Pezetel PZL-24A/F/C/G Monospar S.T.25 Koolhoven F.K.49A Heinkel He 111F-0 Martin 139WT Vultee V-11-GBT Bristol Blenheim Mk.I Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV Bristol Blenheim Mk.V "Bizley" Curtiss-Wright CW-22R/B Hawker Hurricane Mk.I Hawker Hurricane Mk.II C Hawker Hurricane Mk.II B Hawker Hurricane Mk.II C® Fairey Battle Mk.I Supermarine Spitfire Mk.I Supermarine Spitfire Mk.Vb Supermarine Spitfire Mk.Vc Supermarine Spitfire Mk.V Supermarine Spitfire P.R.Mk.XI Morane-Saulnier MS.406C.1 Westland Lysander Mk.II Avro Anson Mk.I Hanriot 182 Miles Magister Mk.I/IA THK 14 Magister Curtiss 87A-2 (P-40D) Kittyhawk Mk.I Curtiss 81A-3 (P-40C) Tomahawk Mk.IIB Consolidated B-24D Liberator Focke Wulf FW 190A-3 Bristol Beaufort Mk.I/II Miles Master Mk.II/III Martin Baltimore Mk.V http://turkhavakuvvetleri.tripod.com/aircrafts.htm Note that all of the above aircraft were provided either during or before the war by the combatants or occupied countries. That means that spare parts would be VERY hard to acquire. So, it's not always easy to be neutral, but it would be neat to, as a Turkish general, be able to fly all those different types of aircraft when neither the Axis, nor the Allies could. Logan Hartke [ August 07, 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Logan Hartke ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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