Strategies: German

[BriantheWise]

There have been a number of very helpful (and interesting) on the strategies people are using against their opponents. However, many of them, even Huberts, were pre 1.06. So, now that I've played a few times on line, against excellent (and gracious, I would like to add) players, I figure I would restart this thread and bounce off a few ideas, some good (maybe), some bad (probably).

A couple of months ago, someone mentioned that the game is decided in Russia. I think that's changed now. I think that the game is decided in France, and how Russia fares will depend on whether the Axis are forestalled/depleted before they get involved.

As Axis: I take Poland in two turns and declare war on Denmark on the first turn. It falls on the third turn. The German fleet does the work.

I operate the Axis forces over to the West Front, spending precious points. I buy two air force units.

On turn 4, I invade and take the low countries, and punch France in the nose.

On turn 5, my forces are tired, but I punch france in the nose again because it's fun. And then I poke france in the eye, because that's fun too. In other words, I weaken the defending air forces by attacking Frances front line and then kill units. Usually two.

On turn 6, my back up corps take over, while I fix my armor and armies, and try to get a hex next to Paris. Usually kill one unit, weaken others.

On turn 7, everything goes bam! and I usually can take Paris. It might have to wait till turn 8

After that, things go wide open. Sea Lion is a game killer that will either win you or lose you.

In a tournament, I would be reluctant to take the chance. It's very expensive.

I would prefer to go after Vichy, then Spain, then Portugal, while simutaneously taking Norway, Sweden and Malta. Honestly, I haven't gotten that far, or done that yet.

Instead I did the Sea Lion, Russia prepared slow, the U.S. came in, but my air force crushed all resistance, even though I lost much force, both my headquarters, all of my navy. It was a nail biter (and I loved it).

Those are my thoughts, this far along. Use them if you like them. I am sure many or all, already are. I have not yet gotten to where Russia is involved, in an online game, so I'm no expert on this. But that's why we're all sharing.

[JayJay_H]

As expected, the polish and danish campaign is a walkthrough. Afterwords i turn north, to conquer both Norway and Sweden with two armies an HQ a tank unit and my Airforce. Youll say: that gives the frenchmen too much time to prepare for the Jerries onslaught. So What - My Wehrmacht cant get enuff of Target Practice. The more allied units destroyed, the more points i get in the end. And i value the exp my newly drafted armies get in France, theyll be battle-tested when they have to face the bolshevists later.

[Iron Ranger]

A nail biter? I've noticed that against equaly matched players minor mistakes and luck have a huge influance (Axis still have a huge play balance advantage). But against players with even a mild variance of skill, understanding ect... the balance of power quickly flows against the 'poor' player. I would be interested what house rules if any other players are using ( I have read the other post on this subject, just looking to see what else is out there).

And that game was a nail biter Brian. But we both made mistakes that we are unlikely to see again.

[pzgndr]

France is important, but not the deciding factor - unless the German player makes some serious mistakes. Germany can go for the quick blitz into France, but I'm finding it's better to wait. Take Poland, Denmark, Norway, maybe Sweden, Low Countries and then France. By then, you have enough MPPs to buy another Army, HQ, and a couple of air units, either two Air Fleets or an Air Fleet and Strategic Bomber. Then buy a third Tank Group when you can afford it. Germany usually has enough depth to steadily advance through whatever the Allies have built up and France falls by July, maybe August if you took the Swedish detour. Personally, I tend to leave Sweden alone because it adversely affects both US and Finland entry and delays my timetable for a possible Sealion. And I like buying a bomber so I can reduce Paris to low entrenchment by the time my troops get there, and it does comes in handy later.

Once Italy enters and France falls, it's important to op move air to Italy and Libya to protect the Italian fleet and see what the Brits are up to. Now some real decisions must be made. Defend Tobruk and make Egypt an objective, or cut your losses and let Tobruk fall. If the Brits have their strength in the Med, then Britain may be under-defended and Sealion becomes a viable option. But Sealion is a gamble - you either do it to win if the conditions are right or you risk early defeat if you fail. Spain and Gibralter are juicy targets, but Spain affects your minor allies in the Balkans. My solution is to wait until the minors are in play and then hit Spain in spring 1941. Take Gibralter, leave Italians to defend and op move your task force back to fight Russia. If you're lucky, the campaign can be finished just as Russia is preping for war. Once US enters, then Italy can take Portugal.

For Russia, I've tried two approaches. Both have a core of about 3-4 HQs, 4-5 tank groups, 4-5 air fleets and about 10 armies. Additionally, a small force of a HQ and Army should be sent to Finland to help take Leningrad. One approach is to beef up the core force with extra air and/or tanks. The other approach is extra HQs and corps. The first provides more power, but the second provides greater mobility for getting beyond Minsk and Kiev. There are pros and cons to both. Either way, a desperate series of battles end up being fought in late 1942 along the Moscow-Stalingrad line which results in either a German breakthrough and probable Russian surrender in 1943, or the Allies turn the tide and start pushing the Germans back. I find this point of a well balanced game to be most interesting.

In a current game with my worthy opponent Immer Etwas last night, I overextended trying to take Moscow and failed on the first attempt, having nothing left to occupy a vacant hex and losing an exposed tank group on the counterattack. I managed to barely take Moscow on the next attempt. Anyway, with Leningrad and Moscow under German control, the battle for Russia is in a final phase. Russia surrendered by April/May 1943 in our previous game and we ended it at that point, but Russia may hold out much longer this time because the Brits are helping defend the Caucausus - having op moved through Iraq. I did not focus on Sevastopol this time, which previously provided an opportunity to launch transports to invade the Caucausus and strangle the Russians of MPPs. The Urals are tough enough to take even if the Russians are starved for MPPs, which isn't happening this time, yet.

Meanwhile, the Allies have launched a second front by invading Portugal but are meeting stiff resistance from the Italians. I have not used my Italian allies for anything other than securing Greece and fending off partisans in Yugoslavia, but their time to fight has come and they're holding well. I sometimes provide an Italian task force for Barbarossa, but one must be careful using their limited strength so I chose Spain over Russia this time. Anyways, FWIW these are just some observations from my past couple of v1.06 games as Axis. Your mileage may vary.

[JerseyJohn]

All very interesting approaches. Bill's got it down to an exact science! At this point I play it much more conservatively.

I try to get Poland out the first turn if possible by taking Warsaw quickly and destroying at least one army and one corps and weakening the others. If it doesn't surrender the first turn, then it falls on the second.

The plunder helps buy two research chits, one goes for jets and the other for industrial tech.

At this point I used to invade Denmark, which is probably best as it only requires attacks from the Lufwaffe, the two cruisers and one Panzer Group with the other slipping into Wonderful Copenhaggen immediately.

Now I pass it and move to the Rhine with everything. Denmark doesn't seem worth the increase in U. S. & USSR antagonism, so it waits till later.

As soon as everyone finishes meandering West I invade the Low Countries then France. Another reason for skipping Denmark is in case your opponent opts for the Low Lands strategy you're panzers and luftflottes are in a better position to go across and smack him before that miserable Meuse line can be established. The tanks are supported by the local corps with the infantry right behind, so he's not about to hurt anything. Good Allied players seem to know this and, if I don't invade Denmark I notice that early Low Lands attack doesn't happen.

After reorganizing it's France. Sometimes a hard fight, but usually it's over fairly soon. I try to stick close to von Manstein's Ardennes plan and go through the mining area while attempting to keep a path at least two hexes wide so the French can't counterattack the same hapless units from both directions at once. Also, by not going too far toward the Channel I avoid shore bombardments and stay within range of the Luftwaffe. When the Allies are weak enough I make the crunch for Gay Paree.

After France I opt for as early a Sea Lion as possible, sending the Panzer Groups east with an Italian army to grab Yugoslavia, allowing the Italians to occupy Belgrade. A lot of guys don't believe in advancing the Italians but I find they're good when they have enough MPPs to do something.

From there I build a small but effective Atlantic Fleet and Armies in the east, and pretty much ad lib the rest of it.

Meanwhile, voluntarily revealing my pet strategies to people I might play someday is an act of lunacy! It's nice being your own security leak, who needs a Dreyfuss Affair?

[ December 24, 2002, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

Either way, a desperate series of battles end up being fought in late 1942 along the Moscow-Stalingrad line which results in either a German breakthrough and probable Russian surrender in 1943, or the Allies turn the tide and start pushing the Germans back.

I beg your pardon? That never happened to me (russians turning the tide at the Main defensive line)so this as the only alternative to ultimate german breakthrough isnt that stringent as your stating it. Aside from that, im wondering to see the russians one more time called as allies.

[ December 24, 2002, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ]

[Hueristic]

The plunder helps buy two research chits, one goes for jets and the other for industrial tech.

I have no "Set in stone" strategy as i've only been playing 2 weeks now. But on a side note i would like to add does anyone notice the germans getting very slow if not non-existent advances?

I only played like 3 games before patching, but it seems before the patch the germans and the italians seemed to get techs pretty much at the same rate. I tend to drop ind tech into the italians asap. And this usually coincides

with the germans give or take a turn. But right now a game i'm in i have 1 point in italian IND and 2 in german 1 IND 1 JET and the italians have ind tech level 2 while the germans have yet to see one. The last game i lost i had put the same amt in as soon as denmark and poland fell(same turn) and when the allies had berlin surrounded (attacking with Jets lev3) that is when german got it's first tech increase. But then they got increases every turn for 3 turns straight. Was i just unlucky or what?

:confused:

[pzgndr]

voluntarily revealing my pet strategies

JerseyJohn, there are no secrets about this game, only Fog of War and the Fickle Finger of Fate.

And JayJay, I did say Allies, implying a combined effort between US, Britain and USSR to turn the Axis tide. Either they do and eventually win, or they don't and eventually lose. There is no other alternative, is there? Whichever way it goes, it usually manifests itself on the Russian Front, but that's certainly not the only alternative. The Axis could just as easily loose the initiative on a second front. You'd still see the effect in Russia regardless, which was my basic point. So, what's your strategy contribution to this thread??

[JerseyJohn]

"JerseyJohn, there are no secrets about this game, only Fog of War and the Fickle Finger of Fate."

Exactly Bill. And that fickle finger can strike with a vengence! :eek:

[BriantheWise]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. In response to the Norway gambit (to me everything in this game is a gambit, just because when it works, it's just wonderful), as Germans I would never even think of doing that. Just my opinion. Killing France opens up that option, and many others, but doing something like that while France is in play doesn't seem viable.

Less like a gambit, more like a gamble. I'd like to try to play someone who tries that move, not because I don't think it can be done, but because I'd think it'd be fun.

As far as sharing my strategies, even during the contest, etc., maybe I'm not....hmmm. Maybe I'm just trying to find out the good strategie from everyone else for my next game, where I will probably have to play as Germans. hmmm.

Actually, I am sharing my strategy for what has worked for me, and clearly there are some here who disagree.

Besides, winning in SC isn't that important to me. I would rather lost a very good and enjoyable game than win a boring lopsided non-conversational game (I type alot in all my games, good move this, that worries me that, etc).

So far, most of my games have been very good.

Bruce, I liked the rest of your strategy comments. But we will have to agree to disagree on the Norway one (on the other hand, it makes for a good staging point for a Sea Lion, hmmm)...

[Hueristic]

Besides, winning in SC isn't that important to me. I would rather lost a very good and enjoyable game than win a boring lopsided non-conversational game (I type alot in all my games, good move this, that worries me that, etc).

I look forward to playing u. I feel exactly the same way

[JerseyJohn]

Hueristic

"I have no "Set in stone" strategy as i've only been playing 2 weeks now. But on a side note i would like to add does anyone notice the germans getting very slow if not non-existent advances?"

It does seem that way sometimes. Other times they seem to roll in. I think Hubert said something about curving the frequency, in other words 1 comes faster than two, etc..

My first two research areas are set in stone because a higher aircraft level is often decisive and with low industrial technology you can't afford to buy enough new units. Beyond that I'd just apply new research across a wide area. For the Axis my next two group area would be Heavy Tanks and Anti-Tank Guns. For the Brits it would be gunnery radar and anti-aircraft radar. From there both sides are dictated by circumstances.

[ December 24, 2002, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

Yep, i do agree on that: that the Ostfront is the place where the course of the war will be decided in most cases. But its not inescapable for Barbarossa that

1) Germany must force a decisive breakthrough along russias main dfensive line Leningrad-forefields of Moscow-Rostow if they wanna avoid crushing defeat or

2) The Russians turn the tide if Germany failes to achieve this breakthrough.

In a current Pbem match ( Case Blue 1942 Campaign) the activities at the eastern front are limited to skirmishing after i took Leningrad. Every russian attack is beeing repulsed and their corps and armies that came too close and were so folly to attack get destroyed, sometimes up to 3 or 4 per turn. The way v. Manstein would have done it: "Let them all come!" Whereas im waiting to get better jets and tanks until my final offensive will be launched. Until then im having a nice time conquering the med

[ December 25, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ]

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by Hueristic:

In another Pbem its july 41, i spent 2 research pts in IndTech and 2 in Jets, have nothing developed yet, and the Brittish have already jets +3. Man, im not very amused about that. :mad:

[Hueristic]

In another Pbem its july 41, i spent 2 research pts in IndTech and 2 in Jets, have nothing developed yet, and the Brittish have already jets +3. Man, im not very amused about that

No **** i'd be bummin too.