Russian Defence, is there a Good one?

[82ndReady]

The heading says it all! Is there a good defense out there for the Russians to use as a guideline? My current tactics have failed, Germans invade and I hold the initial line, then before it is completely destroyed I withdraw what’s left to cluster around city’s or resource hex’s. While the Germans mop them up I’m building up my reserves along the eastern most side of the map in the last city’s awaiting the Germans to over extend themselves to counterattack, this does not work? By the time they reach these lines there have gained exp and take all I have to destroy a meager 2-3 units!

what to do?

[Alistic]

The way i did it in multiplayer is to keep production rolling in britian, giving a threat of a northern invasion in germany. That way the opponent is hesitant to advance armies into russia with the fear of being invaded, and not being able to defend germany.

Also hopefully you can get lucky and get 1 or 2 technologies in tanks, this will make it very hard for those germans to just roll over the weaker soviet troops.

[lwchen]

You can build 4 corps a turn with 480 MPPs and Industrial Tech 2, and still have some left over to repair units with. If you can form a straight line of defense with no salients, then the Germans can only hit each piece with a max of 2 land units. Also, use the marsh, forest, and any river hexes to your advantage and the German offensive will eventually run out of steam. Remember you get 480 a turn, he gets 350 or so.

This is basically what the Russians did in 1942. Throw masses of men against superior German infantry and armor to wear them down. You will likely lose 50 or more units playing the Russians, but you can afford these losses. Go out of your way to destroy any German unit you can, even at the expense of a few Russian units and you'll see just how fragile the German economy is if they can't get to Moscow in 1942.

With this strategy you really don't need HQs till later when you gain the initiative. Just build corps and a few armies in the cities. It's possible to stop the AI on Expert +2 from capturing the first line of cities if you're good at this strat. You don't even need the Siberian army to win.

[Tdolling]

I am wondering the samething. Some people say fall back and create a double line of defence. Well I try this and the lines hold for awhile, but the cost of me reinforcing my front line troops while trying to build units with more hitting power like tanks is almost impossible. Meanwhile the axis is building new strong units. Gaining tons of experience and tech advances. Eventually the line will succumb to the axis advance. I even build 5-8 HQ and it still is of little help. I suppose as long as you hold out until the british and americans can relieve pressure you might be have a chance, but while you wait for the allies to help the axis can conquer other minors and build up loads of military power. Its tough and if you are playing against a reasonably decent human opponent you are pretty well screwed. Thats just my experience take it for what its worth and I am sure this will start the whole debates on these topics again.

[82ndReady]

lwchen and ALL:

The problem is not that you can afford the losses, the question remains on how to stop the Germans, they will always exploit the holes in your lines and seep through with armor but how do you stop this? Is the answer staggered lines of INF with armor peppered through or what??

And I did read all the responses up to this point and what I got is this "throw infantry into the fray and pray!!"

Is there any method by which to go by since every game is different to defend in russia and hope to then roll back the Germans later or is it hopeless???

I would really like to hear from the Creator of this game on this one but I'm sure hes to busy, but please more experienced player give me your input!

[ October 29, 2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: 82ndReady ]

[I/O Error]

The real trick is this:

1.) Fall back from the original positions ASAP, bringing whatever tattered remnants remain.

2.) Invest in Industrial Technology HEAVILY, at least as soon as you are able to.

3.) Keep pumping out Armies and Corps to stiffen your defensive line. I'm talking three or four lines of defense here, not just one!

4.) Counter-Attacking is usually a bad idea. You might wax a unit or two, but you WILL have left yourself open to further attacks in a weakened state.

(Remember: in history, how were those early Soviet armies surrounded and slaughtered? That's right, they overextended and weakened themselves, and the Germans took their offensive tactics and shoved 'em RIGHT UP their ass.

5.) Do NOT worry about offensive units, not for a while. That's the major mistake most USSR players make, is trying to switch from Defensive tactics to Offensive too soon. Besides, tanks are simply too expensive and too inefficient to make good defensive units, which is what you need. Remember, time is on your side. All you need to do is outproduce the Axis players, and after a year or two you will have an OBSCENE amount of troops to play with, numbers the Axis can't match.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

However, you must remember, although you may have better numbers, the experience and commanders of the Axis wil always have the advantage.

[urgrue]

I like to live by one of Sun-Tzu's important lessons: never let the enemy know your strength.

Generally, I start with a rather wimpy defensive line just to slow the germs down. While he's working on that, I try to build clusters of units around each city. These are a pain to conquer, and he'll have a hard time deciding which way to go, cause most area is empty ground. He won't know where your armies lie.

I don't really believe in the straight defensive line, because although its true that only two units can attack any one unit, it eats up a lot of units to make that long line, and also he only needs a few planes to be able to punch a hole in any given spot in one single turn. Spreading your units along a long line also allows him to get at them all one by one, whereas having them in clusters forces him to concentrate his attack in one location for a longer period of time, allowing you to maneuver around him.

I also build these defended clusters in the better terrains, like forests and behind rivers.

All of these naturally should be built asap and left alone, to gain entrenchment bonuses.

I mainly research industrial tech first, then tanks. This way you can easily buy two tanks per turn, until tank tech raises the price (and upgrades all existing tanks, woohoo!). Get em while they're cheap, and keep them alive long enough to get upgraded.

The main tactic here is to build up a massive tank army somewhere safe, and don't let him know how many tanks you have, or where they are. If your enemy penetrates to this tank army, operate them all away and let his amassed armies attack empty space.

But trick him. If he saw your tanks, leave a few there and let him kill them. This way he won't know how much damage he did to you, and how much you have left.

Leave "fake" defensive lines in place (made up of cheap corps and weak units) just to slow him down and confuse him more.

The ideal situation is one where his main attack force is deep in your territory, facing some fake defensive line, thinking, like Hitler did, that the red army was finished.

Then, when the time is ripe, use your built-up defense force to chop through. The aim is to trap his main attack force inside your territory. It's most important to destroy his supply lines. So use cheap troops to find the less-defended areas, and get your cities back.

If you manage that, then head west, instead of confronting his main army to the east. Going east you'll at best end up with a weakened force far in the east, with little or no defense in place and the germs will just build up a new invasion force.

Heading west will also cause him to panic. He doesn't know how strong a force you have, so he will have a hard time deciding whether to head back west himself, or continue east, or split his forces.

The more confused he is, the more likely it is that he won't have a clear strategic response.

One more important point. He may not see your units, but he does see the frontline move (the color change) when you move your units. So send units into his grey territory regularly, and retreat them back, just to create confusion.

Do this a lot especially before you attack for real, otherwise he will see you coming much too early.

I'm quite a newbie, but this tactic has worked for me.

[Kurt Bullard]

I'm with I/O on the best defense of Russia. Fall back! Put up a token defense of cities and resource centers. Preserve your resources for the day when you can get leadership and mount a local offensive. But don't go on the offensive too early. You'll eventually make a stand somewhere in the East. Someone put it well when they said your goal should be simple survival. Time is on your side *only* if you survive.

Put another way, Russia is the only place where you can trade space for time, and that approach seems to have served the Russians well through several centuries of warfare.

The forward defense of Russia doesn't work for me in SC because:

- You make Russia a training ground for the Wehrmacht. They get *tons* of experience from easy victories against weak units. They can't get experience from what they can't attack.

- The "480 MPP/turn" math breaks down once you start losing cities and resources centers. Things get ugly when you have, say, 350 MPPs/turn.

- You *will* lose resource centers against a competent human.

Let us know what does work for you!

Kurt

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Originally posted by urgrue:

I like to live by one of Sun-Tzu's important lessons: never let the enemy know your strength.

Generally, I start with a rather wimpy defensive line just to slow the germs down. While he's working on that, I try to build clusters of units around each city. These are a pain to conquer, and he'll have a hard time deciding which way to go, cause most area is empty ground. He won't know where your armies lie.

I don't really believe in the straight defensive line, because although its true that only two units can attack any one unit, it eats up a lot of units to make that long line, and also he only needs a few planes to be able to punch a hole in any given spot in one single turn. Spreading your units along a long line also allows him to get at them all one by one, whereas having them in clusters forces him to concentrate his attack in one location for a longer period of time, allowing you to maneuver around him.

I also build these defended clusters in the better terrains, like forests and behind rivers.

All of these naturally should be built asap and left alone, to gain entrenchment bonuses.

I mainly research industrial tech first, then tanks. This way you can easily buy two tanks per turn, until tank tech raises the price (and upgrades all existing tanks, woohoo!). Get em while they're cheap, and keep them alive long enough to get upgraded.

The main tactic here is to build up a massive tank army somewhere safe, and don't let him know how many tanks you have, or where they are. If your enemy penetrates to this tank army, operate them all away and let his amassed armies attack empty space.

But trick him. If he saw your tanks, leave a few there and let him kill them. This way he won't know how much damage he did to you, and how much you have left.

Leave "fake" defensive lines in place (made up of cheap corps and weak units) just to slow him down and confuse him more.

The ideal situation is one where his main attack force is deep in your territory, facing some fake defensive line, thinking, like Hitler did, that the red army was finished.

Then, when the time is ripe, use your built-up defense force to chop through. The aim is to trap his main attack force inside your territory. It's most important to destroy his supply lines. So use cheap troops to find the less-defended areas, and get your cities back.

If you manage that, then head west, instead of confronting his main army to the east. Going east you'll at best end up with a weakened force far in the east, with little or no defense in place and the germs will just build up a new invasion force.

Heading west will also cause him to panic. He doesn't know how strong a force you have, so he will have a hard time deciding whether to head back west himself, or continue east, or split his forces.

The more confused he is, the more likely it is that he won't have a clear strategic response.

One more important point. He may not see your units, but he does see the frontline move (the color change) when you move your units. So send units into his grey territory regularly, and retreat them back, just to create confusion.

Do this a lot especially before you attack for real, otherwise he will see you coming much too early.

I'm quite a newbie, but this tactic has worked for me.

You may be a newbie when it comes to your time here. But this is probably the best stuff ive ever read from someone as new as you are. Keep up the good work, and welcome to the forum!

CvM

[82ndReady]

"Mannerheim" your right about what "Urgrue" had to say, very good information and I will try those ideas out!

[Norse]

Ze Soviet Ztrategy

[lwchen]

Oh the Germans are going to punch holes in your line no matter what you do. But you should have enough cash to form a double line of defense in critical areas so the Panzers can't break through entirely. This is most easily accomplished around the city hexes where you can deploy new units immediately. There's no need to double garrison areas like the marsh and behind river hexes.

Also, keep your precious tanks away from the front line. Use them to hit the German units that manage to break through. Only use them on defense if you absolutely need to plug a hole, and never move them forward on their own.

Also, pull your three air fleets back (they are just fodder for the Luftwaffe) and use them to hit Finland for easy experience. Then when those Panzers with 3 and 4 bars of experience punch through, you can soften them up with a semi-capable air force before sending in the ground forces. The German player will only have a few battle-hardened Panzers so if you get a chance to destroy one ... go all out.

Because of the experience disparity, it's probably best not to attack with units in key defensive positions. It's cheaper to reinforce than to buy an entirely new unit so you want important defensive units at max strength at the end of your turn.

If you are still gaining 400+ MPPs by 1943, you should be in good shape to take the initiative. The trick is to only build defensive units - corps and armies - for the first year or so. Outproducing the Germans by 100 MPPs per turn doesn't seem like much at first, but after a year (33 turns?) it really adds up.

[VonBraun]

All,

Well my standard Russia strategy which has not failed yet is rather easy. (AI opponent has never conquered Russia against me)

You have to invest in Industrial Tech.

Purchase nothing but corps and rush them to the front. Make one line of units and keep adding to it with the reinforcing corps. You can squeeze out 2-4 Corp a turn depending on how much you have to replenish units, the Germans can't keep up with the reinforcements. Very quickly your line of defense will be 2-3 units deep.

I never will defend Russia by putting pockets of units surrounding a city, this is just too easy for the attacker to single out a city and quickly reduce it and its defenders to dust.

It is important for defenders to REMOVE the ability of maneuver and mobility. Not allowing the Germans to out flank and circle existing units or cities.

Just my 2 cents worth. Keep in mind that this works extremely well vs. AI, but against a random thinking human, you never know.

VonBraun

[I/O Error]

I agree completely. The idea of just strengthening your critical areas and not using a "defensive line" will just mean that German Panzers can surround you at will. With a line you can't be attacked by more than two units plus aircraft. With a concentration on cities, several units can all be attacked by three units plus aircraft every turn.

(That and if you surround the city with defense, it's impossible to place units.)

[82ndReady]

Cluster Defence???

I've tried the cluster defence around cities and yes! it is true it takes a couple of turns to reduce it, but this just makes it easier for the German tanks to slide around and exploit the holes left behind. The Germans infantry are then left behind to mop up the cities as I would also do if I were playing the Germans! I believe the best defence is the "checkerboard flypaper" defence I use to play when playing "Panzergruppe Guderian", this will get the German committed to moving forward and slugging it out, this may work after reading all of the rest of the responses!

[urgrue]

i'm happy to hear comments from experienced players.

i'm also happy to hear criticism of my strategy.

but i'm really not convinced of the defensive line strategy. i haven't had that much experience, but it doesn't usually work too well for me. inevitably the germans punch through pretty easily, and then it's a royal mess, as i'm forced to move troops from other parts of the line to prevent him from completely encircling my troops. then it just ends up as one big happy family of enemies duking it out. i usually lose.

what do you all do, when germany breaks through the straight defensive line?

anyway, in the defensive line, a unit can be attack by two enemy land units (until he breaks through, and then he's attacking with much more). assuming a rather medium-sized cluster that just has the immediate hexes around the city covered, your units can be hit by three enemy land units.

but i find that any vaguely decent axis player relies quite a bit on air fleets anyway. this renders that difference pretty insignificant, in my humble opinion.

however the reason i like the clusters is not because of any immediate tactical advantage, but because of a grander strategic advantage (that i might only be imagining, newbie that i am).

the way i see it, if you are the axis player and you are facing a straight line, you have a pretty clear vision of the russian forces, in terms of both location and size.

now if i'm the axis player, and i'm facing a cluster strategy, i don't really know what to do. i don't know where the russian armies are, and i don't know what strategy he's planning. are all his units defending cities? or does he have his armies in the black sea, in the urals, near st.petersburg? how much does he have and what's he going to do with them? if i don't know how big, and where, russia's army is, i don't know how many troops i have to leave behind to defend my already-conquered territory.

the idea is, if he doesn't know, he will likely assume wrong. if he assumes you don't have much left, he will drive deep into your (mostly undefended) land, stretching his supply lines and giving you an opportunity to cut him off. if he assumes you have a lot left, he will be overly cautious, and spend valuable time taking your clusters.

i like to build the clusters mostly with corps. in my current game i can build about 5 per turn. if he comes close to taking the city, then i'll send in a part of my main army (that i am building up behind the lines). he won't be bothering much about killing your corps when there are level 3+ tanks attacking him. as soon as his siege of your city has loosened, i send my tanks away again, to reinforce and admire their medals, and in the meantime i've bought a full load of corps to surround said city again.

i think this strategy is weakest against a german opponent who keeps his head cool and thinks long-term, even willing to sacrifice in the short-term, and maintains a clear strategic plan throughout.

but, fortunately for me, most of my pbem opponents aren't that patient and level-headed.

[Alistic]

It makes sense to have them fall back, you get an extra turn if not more before the attack, to possibly get a tech or more soldiers, also since the German troops are in your territory they wont have a chance to reinforce. But by moving you lose any entrenchment bonus you could have gained from the line. (Providing russians were allowed to declare war 1st.)

[windstarz]

i put as much money into ind tech as possible then buy corps to try to stem the german tide. after i get up to 3 ind tech level i put 1 research pt into inf. i do that instead of tanks cause you have alot more inf units than tank.

i move all the planes to help knock out finland. i move the tank units to safety if possible till russia gets stronger. then basically wait till america comes in the war. also i put all research for britian into ind tech. once it is maxed i move it to fighter tech. then i just look for weaknesses to eploit. games can go differently depending on how tech advances go etc.

[JonM]

Re; Russian Defense

I would advise using UK units to aid in Russian defense - if you control Persia then operate UK units into Russia. This is particularly nice as you can build UK air in N. Africa and then operate the Air into Russia where they use the leader to boost their effectiveness. I have found N. Africa to be the key.

Good Luck, Jon M

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Hello Jon M welcome to the forum please dont take this the wrong way:

Uk units in the Ussr? *cough cough-gamey cough*

[JimR]

In a current game my poor Russians are getting clobbered by six or more veteran German air fleets. This has made it impossible to stabilize the line even though I withdrew fairly deeply into Russia (I thought). Have advocates of the "cluster" strategy found a way to keep German air superiority from devastating the Red Army? :confused:

[urgrue]

Originally posted by JimR:

Have advocates of the "cluster" strategy found a way to keep German air superiority from devastating the Red Army? :confused:

Not me but I would love to hear tips on how to combat this! Building up an air fleet is too costly, and you don't have all the experience his units have. It has always been a disaster for me.

The only way I know how to deal with this is to make it hard for him to know what to do with his planes. Simply put, avoid them.

If his planes are in the east, I try and shrink away (or maneuver through a position out of his immediate range), while going more aggressive with the UK/USA. If he sends them west, likewise I do the opposite.

Building up a good UK/US air fleet is important, but difficult because you can only build one every 3 turns or so. So needless to say you must try and gain experience with places like malta and norway, while taking minimal damage.

It's tough. An axis player with a big fleet of experienced L4+ jets is very frightening.

[Zeres]

Re; Russian Defense

I would advise using UK units to aid in Russian defense - if you control Persia then operate UK units into Russia. This is particularly nice as you can build UK air in N. Africa and then operate the Air into Russia where they use the leader to boost their effectiveness. I have found N. Africa to be the key.

-------------------------------------------------

It's fun to play a "Gamey" game every once in a while, especially with friends. One time I actually managed to get a "free french" army to the Russian front by way of the med ( complete with HQ,army, two corp and an Air unit)...How's that for gamey? In my next "Gamey" game I think I'll attack Greece with my unstoppable "free" French army. It's a great game. I don't think that "Gamey" should be a bad word. There are lots of players that enjoy playing a "serious" game but also partake in an occasional free for all. I love when Jersey John posted his German invasion of Canada. Great stuff. Funny.

[JimR]

Back to this question of how the Russians can withstand German airpower -- do infantry (anti-tank) tech advances improve the ability of armies to defend against attack from the air?