Axis victory with Operation Sealion

[Galileo]

I've played the Fall Gelb campaign scenario as the Axis against the game's AI several times, with the idea of finding what the best way and time for the Germans would have been to invade the UK and knock it out of the war. In an attempt to adhere to historical conditions and events, I kept the USSR neutral while the US and other nations were set to enter the war on historical dates. With regards to Free French forces, I chose to leave this off, since I read a previous note saying that they weren't significant in the scale of the game. I've gone over some of the suggestions posted previously by other people and here are some of my observations in terms of enhancing success:

1. The earliest feasible date to launch Operation Sealion and successfully invade England seems to be the week of August 2, 1940, which is about a week or two earlier than Hitler first wanted to do so but ended up postponing to the middle of September. For this to happen, France should be forced to surrender by July 2 at the latest. Use the two Italian armies to help make this occur by invading southern France and then have them go to the ports at Brest and Bordeaux.

2. With that date in mind, the Germans should build at least 2 submarine fleets (one in Calais and the other at Brest in France) and one or two air fleets while positioning the existing air fleets along the French coast to support the invasion. Rebuild to full strength as many understrength units as possible.

3. Prior to the invasion, transport three or four corps/army units from Hamburg and preposition them in the Kattegat sea. Protect them with the two German surface fleets while sending the other U-boat from the North Sea south and near the coast of the Low countries. You want to get them into position and in range of invading the east coast of England just north of London.

4. Position an HQ and an army unit beside the port at Calais. These will land immediately west of London. It is vital that you land an HQ unit in order to provide some supply for the other landing troops.

5. Try to get the Italians and any available nearby German corps/army units beside the ports at Bresta and Bordeaux, which will land along the English coast west of the HQ unit.

6. In the Mediterranean, the Italians should continuously bombard Gibraltar with its battleships and cruisers in order to attempt to break out into the Atlantic as soon as possible. They should build as many submarine units as possible with this in mind. Stay away as far away as possible from the air unit in Malta, which will be a big nuisance.

7. The U-boat fleet in the North Atlantic should attempt to stay alive as long as possible while interfering with North Atlantic shipping. However, if it is attacked by UK ships and survives the initial attack, it should attempt to attack one of the UK ships and at least damage it before being sunk in the next turn by them.

8. If the Germans can afford it, attempt to rebuild any understrength airfleets and as many corps/army units and position them near ports ready to go in the next wave.

9. On August 2, land the transport units waiting in the Kattegat to the east coast of England north of London while forming a protective screen with your ships and submarines to keep the Royal navy from interfering. Likewise, transport the units in Brest and Bordeaux along the southern coast of England and position the U-boat(s) at the Western mouth of the English channel to try to protect the invading transports landing in sourthern England.

10. On the next turn, the main objective of the most northern units of the Eastern landing forces should be to engage and attack any units near Manchester to keep them away from London while the southern most units attempt to occupy every hex adjacent to London. Likewise, the Southern landing forces closest to London should attempt to do the same to surround London that turn. The objective is to completely surround London immediately and then occupy it the next turn in order to use the port for resupply and reinforcements. Transfer an airfleet to any unoccupied hex around London to plug any gaps. If an adjacent hex is unoccupied by the end of the Axis turn, the Allies will build a corps unit on it, and it will greatly increase the chance of failure of the invasion. You must do whatever you can to secure the port by the next turn. Any other units too far away to help surround should be sent towards Manchester/Liverpool to keep the UK from advancing towards London. Avoid attacking the unit in London to conserve your strength for the next turn. Likewise, avoid using your airfleets to attack any UK units initially unless absolutely necessary or if you have an opportunity to damage the carrier unit. You need to conserve your strength in order to blast the London garrison to smithereens in the next turn.

11. On the turn of August 19, 1940, use every available air fleet to reduce the strength of the London garrison before using your surrounding German units to finish it off. Have an available unit close by to immediately occupy London as soon as it becomes vacant.

12. Once London is secured, your supply problems improve tremendously, and then you can settle in for the slugfest to occupy Manchester. This will take several months in terms of game turns to occur. Try to rebuild your airfleets as best as you can and move them into southern England. You may have to build at least one more airfleet. Concentrate and destroy the units protecting the flanks of the corps unit on Manchester one at a time first, again with the idea of gradually occupying every hex around it. The RAF must be similarly be dealt with in piecemeal fashion.

13. Use any initially surviving Axis units in the North Sea to damage as many RN ships as possible. Try to at least damage the carrier unit. Once the Italians break out of the Mediterranean, send them north to interfere with the Atlantic shipping and again attempt to damage as many RN ships as possible and blockade Liverpool.

14. Don't waste your resources invading Scotland from the sea with the idea of an offensive heading south hoping to break British resistance around Manchester. Instead, spend a game turn or two to build up your forces once you surround Manchester so that you can take it successfully.

15. With aggressive play and some luck, you should be able to force the surrender of the UK by April 1942 and ensure complete Axis victory.

[Comrade Trapp]

Playing against the AI and playing against a real person are two completely different things.

Your strategy would only work if the enemy did exactly what you wanted them to do, when you wanted them to do it.

You did not take into account any units you may loose in the Battle of France, you did not take into account the status of the RAF (number wise and tech wise), and you did not take into account the possible positions of the Royal Navy.

You also did not take into account if Great Britain committed any ground forces to the Battle of France, if they didn't, they may very well be waiting for you dug in south of Manchester, in which they will put up one hell of a fight.

The options you chose are never used when playing the AI or playing a human player because the war is pretty much won for the Axis player under those options. If the USSR stays neutral, the Axis would not have to worry about a 2 front war at all and could focus all its forces against Great Britain for as long as they liked, overwhelming the British long before the United States could enter. Even if the British held out until US entry, the United States would be able to do little against the by then superior Axis (superior in size, tech, and MPPs).

Comrade Trapp

[ September 21, 2003, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: Comrade Trapp ]

[Galileo]

First of all, I had a very tough time against the AI even with all those settings, and it took several tries of different German invasion plans and timing before I found what had the best chance of success. September 1940 is probably too late for Operation Sealion to have succeeded. Historically, it was unlikely that Stalin would have interfered with a German invasion of Britain and would have remained neutral, especially after signing the treaty of nonagression with Hitler and dividing up Eastern Europe. After the purges of the 1930's, the Soviet Army wasn't in the best shape to conduct offensive operations against Germany; besides, Stalin would have preferred to see Nazi Socialism and the Western capitalists destroy each other. This is why I set the USSR to neutral, which it really was until Barbarossa. With regards to your other comments, the UK didn't commit more than its expeditionary force to France in 1940 to stop the Germans and in fact barely rescued it from Dunkirk minus their equipment and arms. Hitler did not plan for an invasion of England early on for numerous reasons; had he done so and made preparations (such as building sufficient landing crafts) prior to conquering France, he may have been better prepared to execute Sealion properly and early on. I agree that a human Allied player may play the scenario differently and more aggressively, but the AI seems to adhere to historical behavior fairly closely early in the campaign, and that was what I wanted to examine given the historical conditions in 1940-1941. It is also unlikely that the US would have gone to war with Germany earlier if the UK had been invaded because of the isolationist mood at the time; it went to war only when attacked by Japan and then against Germany when Hitler declared solidarity with Japan. As I mentioned, an invasion of Britain will devolve into a prolonged slugfest for the industrial area around manchester and Liverpool. Historically, the British made preparations to withdraw their forces north if London fell. However, if the Germans managed to land sufficient forces and capture London and the port at Dover within two weeks of landing, then their success in conquering England would have been only a matter of time.

[Galileo]

With regards to the Battle for France, it is impossible to force the surrender of France in late June 1940 within the Fall Gelb scenario campaign and against the AI. Historically, Paris wasn't even surrounded before the French gave up. In terms of the game, forcing the Low countries to surrender in the first turn by destroying the Brussels unit first and surrounding the Dutch and then blasting through French lines at the Ardennes forest and reaching the outskirts of Paris in the second turn is absolutely essential in knocking out France by July 2 within the Fall Gelb campaign scenario. When properly played, the Germans will suffer minimal losses both in terms of land units and air fleets, and there is little that the British or the French can do to stop them.

[Blashy]

If you go for the invasion of UK.

You have to put US at random.

There is NO way the US would have stood by and just watch the UK being taken.

While the USSR had its own visions of glory so putting it as neutral is also not going to work.

Sealion vs. a player will not work at the begining of the game, unless he tries something foolish, which I've done when experimenting new strategies as a newbie.

[Comrade Trapp]

You keep talking about keeping the game historical; when you play SC don't think like that. Playing historically makes you predictable, if you play as the Axis and you play historically, you will probably lose the war.

First of all, I had a very tough time against the AI even with all those settings, and it took several tries of different German invasion plans and timing before I found what had the best chance of success. September 1940 is probably too late for Operation Sealion to have succeeded.

Yes, you would have a very tough time with Operation Sealion using that timetable; Sealion is always a bitch to pull off. But with the USSR set to neutral, you can take as long as you want to prepare and you can take as long as you want even after the invasion is in progress. Like I said, the setting you chose pretty much guarantees an Axis victory.

With regards to your other comments, the UK didn't commit more than its expeditionary force to France in 1940 to stop the Germans and in fact barely rescued it from Dunkirk minus their equipment and arms.

Most Allied human players don't commit anything more than a few British corps in the defense of France. I have never seen a human player build a British Expeditionary Force (Army) to send to France, because chances are, it would be destroyed.

I agree that a human Allied player may play the scenario differently and more aggressively, but the AI seems to adhere to historical behavior fairly closely early in the campaign, and that was what I wanted to examine given the historical conditions in 1940-1941.

You are probably right there, but beating the AI is a small achievement. You haven’t really played SC until you've played a human player. The AI makes too many stupid moves and some important moves it will never make at all. For example, the Axis AI will never launch Operation Sealion, even if England is left completely defenseless.

Why don't you get involved in playing real people, get involved in Z-League (Z-League is the ladder used for TCP/IP play), or PBEM (Play by E-mail).

Sign up for Z-League at: Z-League

Then leave a post in the "Opponent Finder Forum: English Speaking Players" Forum to find someone for a game. Hell, I'll even play you.

Comrade Trapp

[ September 21, 2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Comrade Trapp ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

I think some of you have missed the point on what Galileo is doing. He's simply trying to recreate the historical conditions so he can attempt a Sealion. He's not offering advice on how to conduct a Sealion against a human or even against the AI. Basically, Galileo is expanding on a historical "what if". About the only comment that applies to what he's discussing is what the US would do.

He's correct in that Russia would have stayed neutral, while Germany and the UK fought. The big question would be what would the US have done, since entering to try and save the UK isn't as clear cut as some of you think.

[Feldtrompeter]

Hi Galileo

I have read your strategy to take England and like to leave some comments. First I like to say that I am new to the game and have not played the game against a human opponent yet.

My observation is that at least two points in your strategy are worth discussing while playing against the AI.

1. You say that Seelöwe should start around August.

I don’t know why you set this timetable. The USSR and I think also the US are not affected in their war-readiness till June 1941 if the Axis does not DOW any other country after France. So this gives the Axis much more time for preparing a Sealion than you are willing to give them. Of cause also GB will get additional MPPs but since Axis gets more than GB (especially after the Minors join) it might be better to collect a few more MPPs before starting the operation.

2. Your tactics used when taking GB are worth discussing.

First you don’t take London in your first attack on the island which I do not understand.

Second you build additional U-boats for whose MPPs I’d rather build air fleets.

Third I would not risk my HQs near the English shore and move them up with the invasion on the first attack.

I have successfully made a Sealion in a Fall Gelb scenario with a different tactic. My scenario had all nations at random and FOW on with difficulty plus 2 but no experience bonus for the AI.

I forced the French surrender at the end of July and started my invasion many turns later (I don’t recall when it was exactly at the moment, but it must have been September or October). My attack was organised as follows:

1. Build up at least five air fleets and position them at the French shore near England.

2. Try to break out with the Italian fleet into the Atlantic as soon as possible.

3. Just before the invasion starts order your German Atlantic U-boat to the Canadian coast. That will draw at least three big Allied ships off of the English waters and away to an insignificant place.

4. By the time the sub is sunk by the arriving UK ships near Canada, arrive with three tank and three army groups around London. Guard this main invasion with one or two corps to the north of London and maybe southwest of London plus the three German naval units. The corps and the German ships do the only job of protecting the main invasion from naval attacks as good as possible.

5. In the very same turn, you move your forces to the British shore, bomb London with your five (or more) air units.

6. Move one or better two of your HQs to the port in Brüssel.

7. During the next turn the English naval units will do you only harm in the north of London, killing the corp and a naval unit plus damaging the other two naval units as well. The Allied air will be reduced in strength due to the interception they flew when London was attacked. They will do little damage and mostly only one other invasion unit will be destroyed or damaged.

8. On your next turn fly about three more attacks on London with air fleets first. Then land in GB and attack London four times. The surprise bonus your landing units receive will kill the London defender, allowing you to take London in the same turn.

9. Move your HQ (s) over to England by see- transport (you can use the harbour since you conquered it). Unload the other invasion groups.

10. Destroy with your ground units the UK land units and move your air fleets over the channel as soon as possible.

11. With two HQs in England, London harbour in your hand, five airfleets in the Kingdom it should be no problem defeating UK soon enough.

Of cause the USSR and the US will prepare for war soon. But neither of them is a real threat. Spain will join and the other three Minors as well. Move their troops over to the Balkan mountains at the border to the USSR as soon as possible and to the Hex near the black sea that has to be attacked from the river, if the USSR should dare to come.

Then protect the northern border to the USSR with German armies and probably a new HQ. If you still lack Armies, use the Italian ground forces to protect the border south of Warschau and north of the Balkan Mountains.

Most likely both the USSR and the US will join the war before GB surrenders, but since the Italian Navy will have reached the Atlantic by now and the east front armies are entrenched, they are no real threat.

After GB you have two options: Going for the US first or finish Russia.

If you go for the US, invest in anti-tank tech only to hold the front in the east and move your air fleets to the east front and build another HQ for them. Move your ground forces from GB to either Canada or directly to the US. Usually the city in the south of the US is best to be taken first.

After the US is out of war, you have all the time you need for Russia.

Unfortunately the plan wont work against a human opponent for many reasons.

Against the AI it will work every time as far as my experience is concerned.

I was even astonished how easy it is to take England against the AI.

Feldtrompeter

[Galileo]

Thanks for your recommendations. I will go ahead and try them out. Having tried setting both the US and the USSR to enter the war at random, I agree that once the Italian navy breaks out into the Atlantic, the USA is not much of a threat. Whatever method is used, though, the UK will eventually fall. I build the subs to try to protect my invasion forces and then use them to attempt to damage the Royal Navy as badly as possible. The USSR is definitely a problem once it enters the war, though, so I will definitely be interested in your tips.

This discussion thread reminds me of the debates in the 1970's when wargaming was at its height of popularity thanks to the people at Simulations Publications, Inc, where Jim Dunnigan and his game designers were always caught between historical accuracy versus making the game balance and playability. I was always more interested in using these games as tools to study history; historical accuracy was more important than play balance for me. Therefore, making the US and the USSR enter the game at random seems to me more of an attempt to balance the game rather than reflect the true attitudes of Stalin and Roosevelt. Americans were gripped in isolationist fever during that period and refused to have anything to do with the affairs of Europe. Roosevelt wanted to help England during her greatest time of need during the Battle of Britain but Congress did not want to have anything to do with it. It seems to me that once London fell, the King imprisoned in the Tower of London and Churchill hanged by the Germans, Americans would have be even less likely to attempt to join the European war for a lost cause. With regards to Stalin, as I previously mentioned, he was even less likely to attempt anything against Germany, having signed his treaty of nonaggression giving him Eastern Poland and the Baltic states. He would have been very happy to see Nazi socialism duke it out with the capitalists in Britain. He certainly didn't bother to prepare for war until it was too late, despite German successes in the Balkans and the Mediterranean and North Africa which should have alarmed him. Instead, he held Hitler to his word, which was a huge mistake on his part.

In any case, making these nations in the game behave similarly to their historical counterparts will definitely make the game unbalanced; for me, though, it is an important lesson of what could have been had Hitler decided to risk it all in an invasion of the British Isles rather than repeating Napoleon's mistake in Russia.

[Panzer Joe]

Originally posted by Galileo:

With regards to Free French forces, I chose to leave this off, since I read a previous note saying that they weren't significant in the scale of the game.

While that Makes it seem easier it is actualy hurting you in the long run. The way you kill the UK is through economics. The Brits will get the French air corp and one of the french fleets. The fleet is unimportant for your stratagy I will tell you why in a bit.

The air corp is another matter. The french air does not get the advantage of british comand or british jet upgrades. You will have an over whelming advantage in air power and economy. When the air unit takes damage the computer will repair that crippled unit instead of building 2 corps which is what will hold off a succeful sealion.

1. The earliest feasible date to launch Operation Sealion and successfully invade England seems to be the week of August 2, 1940, which is about a week or two earlier than Hitler first wanted to do so but ended up postponing to the middle of September. For this to happen, France should be forced to surrender by July 2 at the latest. Use the two Italian armies to help make this occur by invading southern France and then have them go to the ports at Brest and Bordeaux.

Use the Italians to provide an additional 2 air fleets from the safety of france. Use only german troops in france with thier superior leadership.

2. With that date in mind, the Germans should build at least 2 submarine fleets (one in Calais and the other at Brest in France) and one or two air fleets while positioning the existing air fleets along the French coast to support the invasion. Rebuild to full strength as many understrength units as possible.

Submariens are useless. You can not defeat the British navy at sea.

To make a succesful invasion against the computer. Try to have one surviving sub block the channel south of cornwall. If you place it close to France he won't see it until he russhes in with his ships and has a surprise encounter. The navy will stop and destroy your sub and the invasion will be in place.

3. Prior to the invasion, transport three or four corps/army units from Hamburg and preposition them in the Kattegat sea. Protect them with the two German surface fleets while sending the other U-boat from the North Sea south and near the coast of the Low countries. You want to get them into position and in range of invading the east coast of England just north of London.

Exactly

If your entire navy is destroyed you have not lost much once you hold london getting troops across the channel will be easy from Antwerp.

4. Position an HQ and an army unit beside the port at Calais. These will land immediately west of London. It is vital that you land an HQ unit in order to provide some supply for the other landing troops.

I also try to have another HQ ready to go across in the second wave. Once you drive on Birmingham you will move all 4 air fleets and another tank into england. you want every unit to have excelent HQ support.

5. Try to get the Italians and any available nearby German corps/army units beside the ports at Bresta and Bordeaux, which will land along the English coast west of the HQ unit.

I don't like the Italians here. When I invade the first wave is 2 corp 2 armies 1 tank 1 HQ. The second wave is 4 Air fleets 1 tank 1 HQ and replace any ground losses from the first wave.

There isn't much room in south england for my troops to move. The italians would just get in the way. You might throw in some suicide italian corp in the north of England for the second wave. They will soak off some of the defence from the south and may actualy do some damage.

6. In the Mediterranean, the Italians should continuously bombard Gibraltar with its battleships and cruisers in order to attempt to break out into the Atlantic as soon as possible. They should build as many submarine units as possible with this in mind. Stay away as far away as possible from the air unit in Malta, which will be a big nuisance.

The Italians should ignore sealion and gibralter. You will loose expencive ships and he will take a few dings on a cheeply repaired corp. The only way to take Gibralter is with a land invasion of Spain or large numbers of air units from North Africa.

I like to take the Italians to egypt and destroy the english navy there. Once that is gone you can take the Suez in a sea invasion.

7. The U-boat fleet in the North Atlantic should attempt to stay alive as long as possible while interfering with North Atlantic shipping. However, if it is attacked by UK ships and survives the initial attack, it should attempt to attack one of the UK ships and at least damage it before being sunk in the next turn by them.

Don't try to fight. Run away then hope to live or at least get a surprise engagement when they find you again. If your subs are still alive the fleet will be looking for them and not stopping Sealion.

8. If the Germans can afford it, attempt to rebuild any understrength airfleets and as many corps/army units and position them near ports ready to go in the next wave.

You want at least 4 Airfleets 2 tanks 2 armies 2 corp at full streangth. The more air you have the better.

9. On August 2, land the transport units waiting in the Kattegat to the east coast of England north of London while forming a protective screen with your ships and submarines to keep the Royal navy from interfering. Likewise, transport the units in Brest and Bordeaux along the southern coast of England and position the U-boat(s) at the Western mouth of the English channel to try to protect the invading transports landing in sourthern England.

If you don't have any thing to protect the south end of the channel. Send in two Italian corp as a suicide squad. The brits will destroy them before moving in on your tanks and HQ.

10. On the next turn, the main objective of the most northern units of the Eastern landing forces should be to engage and attack any units near Manchester to keep them away from London while the southern most units attempt to occupy every hex adjacent to London. Likewise, the Southern landing forces closest to London should attempt to do the same to surround London that turn. The objective is to completely surround London immediately and then occupy it the next turn in order to use the port for resupply and reinforcements. Transfer an airfleet to any unoccupied hex around London to plug any gaps. If an adjacent hex is unoccupied by the end of the Axis turn, the Allies will build a corps unit on it, and it will greatly increase the chance of failure of the invasion. You must do whatever you can to secure the port by the next turn. Any other units too far away to help surround should be sent towards Manchester/Liverpool to keep the UK from advancing towards London. Avoid attacking the unit in London to conserve your strength for the next turn. Likewise, avoid using your airfleets to attack any UK units initially unless absolutely necessary or if you have an opportunity to damage the carrier unit. You need to conserve your strength in order to blast the London garrison to smithereens in the next turn.

If you have enough air power it may be possible to kill it in one turn. It is important to hit it several times before the invasion to get the etrenchment levels down and bleed the british air power.

11. On the turn of August 19, 1940, use every available air fleet to reduce the strength of the London garrison before using your surrounding German units to finish it off. Have an available unit close by to immediately occupy London as soon as it becomes vacant.

12. Once London is secured, your supply problems improve tremendously, and then you can settle in for the slugfest to occupy Manchester. This will take several months in terms of game turns to occur. Try to rebuild your airfleets as best as you can and move them into southern England. You may have to build at least one more airfleet. Concentrate and destroy the units protecting the flanks of the corps unit on Manchester one at a time first, again with the idea of gradually occupying every hex around it. The RAF must be similarly be dealt with in piecemeal fashion.

13. Use any initially surviving Axis units in the North Sea to damage as many RN ships as possible. Try to at least damage the carrier unit. Once the Italians break out of the Mediterranean, send them north to interfere with the Atlantic shipping and again attempt to damage as many RN ships as possible and blockade Liverpool.

14. Don't waste your resources invading Scotland from the sea with the idea of an offensive heading south hoping to break British resistance around Manchester. Instead, spend a game turn or two to build up your forces once you surround Manchester so that you can take it successfully.

15. With aggressive play and some luck, you should be able to force the surrender of the UK by April 1942 and ensure complete Axis victory.

NEVER kill a crippled air unit! You want the brits building expencive replacments for their crppled RAF not cheep easily replaced corps.

By the time you assalt Birmingham you will have a 5-2 advantage in air strength and you can easily replace your losses.

The battle will be won with German armies and tanks. I always keep all the powers random the only way you loose is if Russia declairs. The US is unimportant. They will be to little and to late to save poor Britian. Even with the US in the war it is easy to invade Canada. There just aren't enough US fleets to stop your unportected transports.

[ September 22, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Panzer Joe ]

[pzgndr]

making the US and the USSR enter the game at random seems to me more of an attempt to balance the game

Maybe. If Axis follows a historical path, US and USSR entry should also be semi-historical. But if Axis chooses a different path then it's reasonable to expect a different reaction by US and USSR. I think the way SC handles it is pretty good.

Random entry forces both sides to carefully consider the timing and consequences of their actions. That makes the game most challenging. If you want historical entry or just keep US and/or USSR neutral, those options are also available.

Btw, good discussion on Sealion.

[Panzer Joe]

Off topic but this thread has me thinking about the defence a human would put up against Sealion.

A real human opponant would have a fleet in the North sea near Edinburough and one in the Irish sea south of Birmingham. They would move into the channel and destroy the HQ unit......

Why is it that with Fog of war on you can see what type of unit is loaded in that transport? Shouldn't you enter the channel and see six loaded transports and have to guess?

[ September 22, 2003, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Panzer Joe ]

[Edwin P.]

Good Post on Sealion

Last night I launched Sea Lion after taking France, Denmark and Norway and was able to take London on the First Turn while losing one ship and one transport to the British Fleet which was too far north to stop the invasion.

Taking Manchester took a bit longer as the Brits brught in their Carriers and Battleships to harress my troops. Then UK Fell, Spain Joined the Axis and I was able to have about 10 armies and 3 HQ on the Front when war broke out.

Since then I have been pushing the Russians steadily back, slowly, very slowly. As German production exceeds Russian production by only 10 to 20 MPP per turn.

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Now the AI has the UK and Minor Countries with over 600MPP but no where to spend it. The Italian Fleet is guarding the Atlantic.

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Also if the AI had evacuated even one or two French units to the UK it would have made an early conquest of the UK more difficult. The same pertains to building a corps or two to defend england instead of an Expensive HQ unit.

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I don't know what the US AI is doing but I will soon find out.

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[ September 23, 2003, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Feldtrompeter]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Good Post on Sealion

Last night I launched Sea Lion after taking France, Denmark and Norway and was able to take London on the First Turn while losing one ship and one transport to the British Fleet which was too far north to stop the invasion.

Taking Manchester took a bit longer as the Brits brught in their Carriers and Battleships to harress my troops. Then UK Fell, Spain Joined the Axis and I was able to have about 10 armies and 3 HQ on the Front when war broke out.

Since then I have been pushing the Russians steadily back, slowly, very slowly. As German production exceeds Russian production by only 10 to 20 MPP per turn.

I think you should go for Sweden right after GB and wait till you got Skandinavia before you attack in the east.

Norway gives you 30 MPP. Norway and Sweden supply your industry with about 100 MPP. Big difference.

And conquering Sweden only delays your attack in the east for about five to seven turns.

Don't fear the US. They wont come across the Atlantic ...

Feldtrompeter

[Edwin P.]

Feldtrompeter - You are right

I defeated Russia at at that time the US had over 2600MPPs in the bank and the Minor Allies 1600.

The US never built any ships and never used their transports

They did reach level 5 Long Range and started pounding my transports when they came within range. But they had only 3 Air units as land units and 3 HQ units occupied all other squares. PS: The HQ units were all on the coast.

[ September 23, 2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Feldtrompeter]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Feldtrompeter - You are right

I defeated Russia at at that time the US had over 2600MPPs in the bank and the Minor Allies 1600.

The US never built any ships and never used their transports

They did reach level 5 Long Range and started pounding my transports when they came within range. But they had only 3 Air units as land units and 3 HQ units occupied all other squares. PS: The HQ units were all on the coast.

You know, I made my first Sealion just a couple of weeks ago. I was surprised how well it works against the AI but was wondering how to go on after GB is out of war.

First I thought it is best to invest in anti-tank tech, buy a new HQ and hold the eastern border without attacking Russia at all and go straight after the US and Canada before throwing all I have against the USSR.

I thought that the US has to be taken as long as she did not have the time to place a unit on every hex of her country plus Canada.

Allthough that strategy does indeed work, I found out that leaving the US alone and finish Russia is maybe best.

I take Sweden and then build up the force I need to attack. While Germany pushes the Russians back east, Itally goes for the other European countries plus Irak. Usually I let Itally do all the fighting and then occupy the Capital with a German corp so that my east front gets more and more supply.

America wont come and if they try to come I am prepared: I take all my naval units and place them as a chain from Portugal to GB. So America wont be able to do an unexpected invasion against Europe.

After Russia is down, I build up about ten Aircraft carriers and then visit the US coast...

After they hav finished the US Air and HQs, I transport my Armies and Tank to the American shore.

The rest is easy.

Feldtrompeter

[Edwin P.]

After thinking it over, I think that the US AI should have strategies for what to do if the UK falls to a sea lion. It should select the strategy to use based on the current condition of the opposing forces and a random variable. Naturally the best players should be called on to help devise the strategies.

For a defensive strategy with over 2600 MPPs in the bank they could have researched subs and purchased at least six submarines, adding a new sub every three turns. Operating under the cover of Air Fleets with Long Range 5 and Jets 3+ this would have been a killer to any invasion force and made the game more interesting.

Moreover, if they had access to Canada's MPPs they would really have a fight on their hands. Of course Canada's MPP's should go back to the UK if the UK is liberated.

Also, if the UK falls then the US should gain MPPs due to the end of the Leand Lease Effort.

Therefore US Production should equal Base 160+ 40 Canada + 20 Lend Lease = approximately 220 per turn.

Proposed AI Strategies for US if UK Falls

US Strategy 01 - Liberate the UK

US Strategy 02 - Defend America

In this strategy the US AI concentrates on preparing the defense of the US and Canada.

US Strategy 03 - Invade France then withdraw.

A strategy designed to draw Axis troops away from the Eastern Front.

US Strategy 04 - Liberate Nordic Countries

This strategy cuts German MPP production in an area that the Axis would take the Axis at least 2 turns to send in reinforcements.

US Strategy 05 - Control the Seas

While the Axis powers are busy figting in Russia the US Naval and Air Forces can attempt to destroy the Axis navy forces in the Atlantic with a series of hit and run raids. The Axis will be unable to replace their losses and if successful the US can clear a path to liberate the UK or Invade France or Norway before Russia falls.

Random Events

Random Event if UK Falls - 50% Recall Carrier from Pacific after victory at Midway. This option would give the US a free Carrier and Cruiser Unit which would appear in Oct of 1941 after having traversed the Panama Canal.

Random Event if UK Falls - 50% US gains a 10% reduction in production cost of Naval units due to focus of war economy on building a strong Navy to control the Atlantic.

[ September 24, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Feldtrompeter]

Edwin P.

I think the US has little choice concerning her strategy after GB is out of war.

They only collect 180 MPP and even if Canada’s MPPs are transferred over to the USA they will only get 220 MPPs.

Italy alone will be equipped good enough to deal with any US invasion in Europe or North Africa. German only has to send some Air and the Italian Army will do the rest.

The only strategy that I can think of would be to protect North America from an Invasion.

The Problem is that Germany will get about 1000 MPPs after Russia is taken which will take place latest in 1944. I just can’t see how the US will be able to withstand with her little MPPs an Axis attack that has almost unending resources and two and a half year of time to be completed.

I agree that the US should get more naval units from the Pacific as time goes on. The two Battleships they have are few.

On the other Hand an Axis player can argue that the US coast is too short. If you want to really draw a map of the eastern coast of North America, Germany would find more than enough room to do a successful invasion anytime.

Another thing: When Germany is done in Russia they will mostly have at least L3 or L4 tanks, armies, long range and jets. America can research whatever they want to they will never be able to withstand a fleet of carriers that first finish of the American navy, air and HQs. Germany can build a new carrier every turn, while America can’t even repair all their losses of last’s turn.

I am afraid that there is just no way to safe the US.

Feldtrompeter

[Edwin P.]

I just did a quick campaign assuming a successfull Axis Sea Lion

US Controls Canada

Germany Controls UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Vichy - production 700+

Russia overrun but still fighting

If any one would like a copy drop me an email and play it the first time FOW.

The main problem is that I can't figure out how to get the Axis AI to use its navy in an intelligent manner.

[J P Wagner]

BUMP....