Iron Ranger Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Thanks Kuni, you must be a doctor. Good to know, if I have any medical questions I'll send them your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Sex with ugly women make you go blind. Sex with beautiful women will give you an ulcer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueristic Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 ALL "House rules" are stupid and unnessesary. The reason for the bidding system was to make it thus. If suddenly one side has a huge advantage because of a new gambit then BAM the bidding should reflect this. Twisting the rules around so that you can keep the bidding Axis plus Mpp's is stupid. If your afraid rome will fall on turn five then Bid Allies 1500. It is my opinion that you peops want the Fall Weis to be Skewed to the Axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Hueristic: Some things cant be reflected by the bid... If the bid would reflect the Rome gambit, then the game would become unplayable for all people who wants to play a "normal" game without gambit. The bid would force them to use the gambit or loose if they dont do it. Then the game wouldnt make fun any more when it is decided in the first 5 turns for most players. Experienced players can still win against the Rome gambit, but all new/intermediate players would have lost immediately. That was the reason for a house rule against this gambit in the ZL. Against everything else there exists a counter, but not against the Rome thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Wouldn't it be easier for someone to write "Counter to the Rome Gambit" and post it in the newbie sticky thread? Then its no longer necessary to make it "illegal". I remember when Z-League first started and I wanted to play using an House Rule (limit on air units). I was told no way, there will be no House Rules in Z-League. Now look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Shaka: The problem with the Rome gambit is: There is NO COUNTER. If anybody chooses to do it, he will win against all new and intermediate players after 5 turns and this is not the sense of Strategic Command and the Z-League Therefore it is not possible to write about a counter in the newbie sticky thread and therefore we have this house rule . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Terif ... he will win against all new and intermediate players after 5 turns ... Why did you qualify your statement? What would be different if it was an "experienced" player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Because only experienced players are fast enough in France to get it before it is too late after the Rome gambit (Allies need some turns until they can use the italian forces and mpps). Axis have to use their forces very efficiently after France or they will loose. It will take a long time and they really need to know what they are doing and every single unit/mpp is important. To be able to do so you need to have played 50+ games... I also encountered the Rome gambit and never lost against it, but I know only very few players who have a chance winning against it. And its not the sense of a competition game to have an "automatic win" button with the Rome gambit... [ July 25, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Terif Your explanation about what experienced players have to do is the "Counter to the Rome Gambit". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 Originally posted by Shaka of Carthage: Wouldn't it be easier for someone to write "Counter to the Rome Gambit" and post it in the newbie sticky thread? Then its no longer necessary to make it "illegal". I remember when Z-League first started and I wanted to play using an House Rule (limit on air units). I was told no way, there will be no House Rules in Z-League. Now look at it. Originally, Z-League was a "no house-rule" league. The house-rules listed for the Z-League are the mandatories but you are allowed using individually decided house rules if both players are CLEAR about it before the game. [ July 25, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Shaka: There is not one single successful strategy against the Rome gambit. Its like in chess: Depending on what your opponent does, you need to know what to do and plan several turns ahead. I cant give you a simple solution. It would be like a try to explain all possible moves in chess until the check mate... There are endless possibilities and only experience can tell you what you have to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Terif I understand. But it still doesn't change the point that there is a "counter". It may not be an easy one, but it still exists. I do understand that you are saying its easier to not allow it, than to teach the counter. Its a reverse of the LC Gambit, where moving a few units from Poland to the western border takes away the Allied LC Gambit. Different subject. I'm curious why you personally, are not complaining about the problem with Armored units. Do you not see it as a problem? In effect, its pointless to invest in Heavy Tank R&D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Shaka: Yes, the "counter" to the Rome gambit is very complicated and nothing you can teach a new/intermediate player in words. Its about knowing all off the thousands of little rules in SC. They have to learn it in their games and they would need a lot of them. Axis have to plan the next 10 turns or so ahead after the Rome gambit. Axis have the advantage of the inner line and that they are land powers not naval ones. Therefore its not a real problem if they loose the italian ships and they can easily reconquer Italy. They have to adapt their strategy to the new situation and then use their (very limited) ressources at the right place at the right time. About armored units: There is no real problem in my opinion. They are very powerful from beginning to the middle of the game. When russian anti-tank increases, their tasks have to change. Then you cant use them any more for attacks at soft targets, but still for killing tanks, Hqs, air and other weak units. The main value of tanks is in any case not making frontal attacks, but use their speed and agility to move behind the enemy lines. They have to move through breakthroughs, securing the gap, encircling the enemy, cutting off supply and killing enemy Hqs/airfleets in the rear. Besides this they are excellent in defence. Anti-tank research doesnt influence the main task of tanks, therefore its no problem. Dont use them to attack enemy units, only if you have no other choice. As Axis I often have 9-12 tanks, depending on my strategy and they are very useful, even against Lv2+ anti-tank. Summary: I think anti-tank is necessary, otherwise tanks would be the super weapons in this game and nothing else would have a chance against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curry Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 If someone would be so kind to answer a rookie question - where are the house rules located for teh Z-league? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Its written detailed at the ZL-page in the rules section (game specific rules): http://www.myleague.com/zappleague/ And in the sticky thread at the top of this forum: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002560 [ July 26, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Terif Armored Units Very interesting reply. Thank you. I've admitted many times, that my "weakness" when I play SC is that I follow a "historical" approach and expect "historical" results. Hence, my problems with the number of air and ground units a nation can have. Your analysis of armor units is exactly the strengths and weaknesses of them as they are in SC. I use them the same way. Where we disagree is the effect of Heavy Tank R&D. The main tasks of tanks as you put it. I agree that if I had a Tank Level 5, against a ground anti-tank level 0, it should be a "super" weapon. The mere fact that I can invest in anti-tank, gives me a counter against it. Since I don't have the ability to "counter" air the same way, you end up with the tech and quantity air race that SC becomes. Air and Armor should be the dominant units in the game. Not just the Air. PS... Germanies max number of Armor should be eight (8). Italy max of one (1). No way should they have more than that. [ July 26, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 PS... Germanies max number of Armor should be eight (8). Italy max of one (1). No way should they have more than that. Shaka - you've done alot of research on this. What number's do you feel each major power should have? Before you asked for 6 (?) only german air fleets now I see you've moved to 8. Also didn't Italy have a vey good air force in the early 30's but by 1940 it was old and out-dated? Does'nt this mean they should have 2-3 air units (bombers and air fleets) but they will be of a low tech type (italy rarely has enough MPPs to really get involved in the air race). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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