coe Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 As germans I take Norway. Then a british carrier keeps hammering at the town on the North sea coast. In the town I have an army or a corp and next to it I have an experienced german leader (Bock). I have never seen the carrier take any hits. If it were a land based airgroup attacking a ground unit in a city, every now and then the airgroup would take a hit. In this case the carrier's airgroup never does. What's the story? Conan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Norway, especially Bergen, is a strain for the Germans even with an HQ unit. I've had an airfleet and a bomber there with an HQ and it seems as though they always have maximum losses with minimum damage inflicted on the Brits. I've always accepted it without much thought but I wanted to second coe's observation and would also be interested in the reason. Is it the nearness of England, or the distance from Germany or something else? [ December 21, 2002, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 In my experience, ive never seen a carrier taking any causalties from attacking landunits. Only exceptional case is if an enemy airfleet interferes. That obtains for axis carriers as well. Carrier Graf Zeppelin as launched (Bundesarchiv) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 JayJay_H Terrific pic, only one I've seen of the Graf -- saw a second German Carrier, the Peter Strasser listed in Jane's Fighting Ships where they use the same photo and both ships were set in 1938 but never finished. Would have made for interesting commerce raiding if they'd had them with the Bismark, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst & Gneisnau! My understanding as to why they didn't was Goering kept blocking aircraft allotment and training pilots -- did everything he could to prevent a naval air arm! Interesting topic for a forum, ships of the Z-Plan and British/French reaction to expanded German fleet, Hindenburg class BBs etc.! I wouldn't be able to do it justice. But you -- It would be great! [ December 21, 2002, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: Terrific pic, only one I've seen of the Graf -- saw a second German Carrier, the Peter Strasser listed in Jane's Fighting Ships where they use the same photo and both ships were set in 1938 but never finished. Yep, they never got finished indeed even though they were about to get ready for action. On November 16, 1935, Deutsche Werke Kiel AG was awarded the contract for the first carrier which was given the construction designation "A". Design director for Germany's first carrier was Naval Chief Architect Dipl. Ing. Wilhelm Hadeler. Work on what would be later named Graf Zeppelin began only in December 1936 because the shipyard's spliways were full to capacity with battlecruiser Gneisenau, cruiser Blucher, four destroyers (Z1-4), four submarines (U13-16) and supply ship Franken. Graf Zeppelin was launched on December 8, 1938. When WWII broke out in September 1939, the carrier was 85% complete. Works however would be soon delayed and then halted in order to build badly needed submarines which had proved to be the most effective asset in the hands of the Kriegsmarine. Towed to Gotenhafen first and then to Stettin, the carrier was deprived of her 15cm guns (became coastal batteries in Norway) and used as a floating warehouse. On May 13, 1942 Hitler ordered the carrier completed and the Zeppelin was towed back to Kiel where works resumed seven months later. According to the builder, the carrier would be ready for sea trials in late 1943 but on January 30, 1943, Hitler suddenly decided to decommission all large surface units and the Zeppelin would never be completed. In April 1943, Zeppelin was again towed to Stettin where she was scuttled on April 25, 1945 to prevent capture by the Soviets. However the Russians did refloat the carrier in 1946, loaded her with war booty and in 1947 towed her to Leningrad. Graf Zeppelin class fleet aircraft carriers - The nearly identical 'Peter Strasser' Peter Strasser had a short career. In the year between her sister's first appearance and her own, the "Happy Time" of easy German naval successes had passed, and the production of Allied warships had far surpassed the ability of the Germans to keep up. Peter Strasser's aircraft fought the Soviet Navy and scored multiple hits on the battlecruiser Tretij Internacional in the Baltic. When the Strasser headed North with the main German battlefleet to intercept a Murmansk-bound convoy, the Allied fleet was ready. Good Allied air cover prevented Strasser's aircraft from approaching the convoy, so they had to attack the nearest Allied ship or turn back. The ship below was a strange configuration of carrier deck and large gun turrets, and was reported by the German pilots as the Dutch Molucca. Though similar in appearance to the Dutch ships, these were actually the British Lion class of hybrid battleships with a more powerful armament and better armor, but with slightly fewer aircraft. The encounter ended in defeat for the Germans, and the damaged, planeless, and retreating Strasser could neither outfight nor outrun the British hybrids. In a sinking condition when the Lion caught up to her, the Strasser was sunk by 16" shells at point-blank range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 JayJay_H Amazing. I didn't know the Peter Strasser ever put to sea. Didn't know much about the British BB Lion either. I know they had two classes of BBs late in the war, one using 15" guns and the other using 16"-s, forgot the names of the ships involved. Still wish you'd start a Z-plan forum; everyone would enjoy it and from I can see you're definitely the most qualified. The most info I've seen on it was as an appendix to the old SSI game, Great Battles of the North Atlantic. Also shown there was a new generation of armored cruiser or Pocket Battleship that would have performed at 34 knots and carried 15" main guns -- a host of lighter ships including 36 knot light cruisers with presumably enhanced 6" guns and very heavy destroyers with conventional 6" and also 36 knots, would presumably have done the actual merchant sinking. With such heavy guns I can only assume the Barbarossa class Z-plan ships were intended to scatter or sink escort cruisers. The whole naval Z-plan is interesting. Even beyond the 16" Hindenburg class BBs Hitler planned for ships that would have been larger than Japan's Yamato and Musasshi , 65,000 tons, 9x18" guns, 28 knots performance. Unfortunately, like the Italians, the Japanese lacked the sophisticated electronics and especially gunnery radar which the Germans, British and Americans all used to great effect. Japan's lack of this equipment against the U. S. Navy was probably fatal in itself. Both sunk by American carrier based aircraft -- but, like the Bismark, the pounding they took before going under was incredible! Common wisdom says these giant battleships were already obsolete -- Yammamoto felt that way even while using Yamato as his flagship! -- but I wonder if, given proper air cover, they'd have had a future. Japan also had several hybrids; older BBs whose aft turrets were removed in favor of a short flight deck. Funny looking things probably created out of desperation after Midway and the Marianna's Turkey Shoot. Amazing this place hasn't had a really good naval forum of some kind, at least not that I've seen. The subject gets touched on in peripheral forums and usually has a lot of good info, but never gets as far as it ought to. [ December 21, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Billote Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 There would have to be a little more to the naval game to really draw more sea dogs in. I know that you for one (John) find aspects of the naval game extremely frustrating. Especially the inability of german raidiers to get through the straits of Norway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: Still wish you'd start a Z-plan forum; everyone would enjoy it and from I can see you're definitely the most qualified. In fact, i think my dad would be the one who would be really qualified on that subject, like he is with everything related to german navy. Actually, i got loads of work on my hands with map- & scenario design for a different strategy game, if i can spare the time from work for the University. So at this time - no way. I also have my doubts the Z-Plan is something everybody dares to see reflected here, especially in reference to SC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayJay_H Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Terrific pics of the mighty Yamamoto, Jersey! Always great to make the subjects more graphical :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 General Billote Exactly. That Scapa Flow/Noway passage is like being locked in the basement. I agree that the game is probably not appealing to most sea dogs . They tend to be an aloof lot who don't like seeing much land in their games! JayJay_H Perfectly understandable. Hopefully someone else will start it -- I'd like to abstain as I know there are others who can do it better -- and when it happens you'll doubtlessly knock our socks off with info. Thanks for the good word on the pics. Totally agreed, the pics really do spice these postings and make them come alive. Regrettably you may be right about there not being much overall interest in the Z-plan. [ December 21, 2002, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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