xwormwood Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 It is a shame that the important Kiel-Canal isn't on the map. Would have given the german player a sharper sword for his navy, and the british player couldn't prevent so easily the Kriegsmarine to enter the north sea. - As far as i know Sicily had no bridges to the italian mainland, but it is possible to move land units between italy and sicily. If you place an allied navy in the gap, land-movement becomes suddenly impossible for the axis player (and vice versa). Explanation: that is because aehm, errh, well, yes, mmhh, now then, now then, then now, errrhh... If it is landmovement, how can ships stop it? If it is no landmovement, why don't you have to follow the normal way: pay for ship transport, enter ship, sail ho, disembark and move only one further hex? - Why does Vichy survive the liberation of France (or better: Paris)??? It should surrender instantly and join the allied liberated French Mainland (no plunder, no troops, just reunion). Always somewhat annoying to liberate france, overrun the reich, slowly kick out the last of these heroic italians ("yes, we are still fighting, who needs the germans as long as he has plenty of pizza?") only to see that after the war there isn't a divided germany but a divided france. - Why can't the allied player liberate poland or the baltic states? Should be possible, even though it may be hard to achieve. Sorry for putting all this into one topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piumarcobaleno Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Sicily is connected by a continous flux of transport ships to italy, so you can say that there are already big numbers of ships there, so u don't have to pay for transporting the units, but if an allied fleet is waiting for you in the middle of the sea, obviously you cannot rely on common merchant ships, that would be annihilated rapidly; either consider that the same works for denmark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xwormwood Posted March 18, 2003 Author Share Posted March 18, 2003 "so you can say that there are already big numbers of ships there" You can find these big numbers of ships in nearly every costal area in the world. Dover / Calais, Gibraltar / Morocco, Denmark / Norway, Greece / Crete, USA / Canada (2 little Islands in the atlantic, lol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piumarcobaleno Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 I mean that in that point there is a constant flux of transport ships for commercial goods and trade between Sicilia and Calabria, and the two cities on the strait, Messina and Reggio Calabria have good sea facilities; plus since there is an actual plan for a bridge several kilometers long between the mainland and the isle, that's much more of what u can say of Greece\Crete, no? Nowadays, for example, there's a boat every 30 minutes, that can carry a vast number of men and cars; so u can suppose that in a 1,2 or 4 week turn it's accetable that a corps or an army could cross the sea without an additional expense. Obviously u can be the "allknower" another time. [ March 19, 2003, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Piumarcobaleno ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 The heaviest concentration of anti-aircraft fire of the entire war was put up over the Straits of Messina by Germany to cover the withdrawl of the Hermann Goering Panzer division and other units from Sicily to the Italian mainland. The last time the straights presented an obstacle to an army's movement was around 50 B. C. when a pirate fleet betrayed Spartacus after receiving a commision to transport his troops and camp followers to Sicily. Xwormwood's original point in this thread is very good, there should definitely be a Kiel Canal; Germany used it extensively to transfer even her largest ships to the North Sea and back again. [ March 19, 2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xwormwood Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 Piumarcobaleno: "Messina and Reggio Calabria have good sea facilities; plus since there is an actual plan for a bridge several kilometers long between the mainland and the isle, that's much more of what u can say of Greece\Crete, no?" --> Yes, much more. But much less compared to --> England/France, Istanbul, Denmark. "Obviously u can be the "allknower" another time" --> Slow down, calm down, stay friendly, ok? --> If i am wrong with my opinins it is no --> problem for me to learn something new, --> but such comments aren't really helpful in --> a forum. Try to think about it ("...thinking --> is so important, Baldrick..."). JerseyJohn: Where did you found (can i get) the info about the heaviest concentration of anti-aircraft fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piumarcobaleno Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 That's why denmark has NO need for sea transport to reach; but i remember you that the Channel is a lot WIDER than Messina's Strait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Well, there are many conclusions drawn in this game. For instance many u-boats did pass through Gibraltar underneath the sea then people realize. The Germans do have hard time getting fleets through the baltic to N.Sea, I am not certian how they did historically I know that there was greater protection for them though from Allied raids into the Baltic. In fact it would've been suicide to run down the German fleet as you do in this game and attempt to squish them. You'd be pounded on either side by artillery to smitherines... Leningrad, Suez not working properly, no Panama canal in this game<when it was such a vital US Artery> I think comes to mind as being more important. Is there any consideration to Japan's defeat in this game? If so the US would've come out into the Atlantic with a Hellish Navy/Airforce and Army reserves to put up against the Third Reich. Perhaps a small force could've held the Japanese on their Island as a impotent power... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xwormwood Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 Liam: Germany lost far to many subs at Gibraltar (I strongly recommend you the movie "Das Boot"). Transfering german subs in the medsea was costly and the gains were low compared to what these subs could have done in the atlantic. When looking back on what was achieved the whole operation was a failure. Germany had nearly no problems transfering ships from baltic to north sea because of the Kiel-Canal (aka Kaiser-Wilhelm-Kanal / Nord-Ostsee-Kanal). You'd be pounded on either side by artillery to smitherines... ...only if you were able to survive these endless minefields... [ March 19, 2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 WormWood: Yes! I watched Das Boot, was an instant love affair! That new one U-something and K-19 don't compare although I really really loved the Red October for its era. Though maybe it was too costly to perform. the Kiel Canal you talk about would be nice a place for the Axis to operate and work their fleet. You try bringing the German Cruisers to Western France for a break-out as originally was intended and you'll get a real real shock that it's just about impossible unless Germany has 6-9 aircraft along the coast to protect the movement. There is real way to rellocate the German Fleet to the Atlantic, I would purpose the idea of a transportation for heavy ships along Axis controlled Coastlines<and possability of a Destroyer class ship to be able to be built besides U-boats in France to compliment N.Sea raiding and anti-shipping.. I know about the mines, they were serious! My GrandFather recently deceased was worked on a MineTrauler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 xwormwood Excellent question about that Messina Straight AA coverage; it was from both the mainland and Sicily side, which was why it was so intense and also why so many German troops were ferried across. Unfortunately, as happens once in a while, this is something I found out in the early sixties and, as I was both an avid reader and viewer of documentaries even at that time, it's difficult to recall sources. I do recall this being mentioned in a documentary on the Sicilian Campaign and I also read it somewhere, possibly in Albert Kesselring's memoirs. I'd like to find a source for it myself, that and the Italian Government's belief that one of it's subs sank the US BB Texas! I'll try to find a reliable source and will keep you posted on it. If you find a source I'd also be interested in exploring it. [ March 19, 2003, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Liam We need a way to simulate the passage of German U-boats and warships along the Norwegian fjiords, out into the North Atlantic, and back again. This was the way Germany did it in the war. Once Iceland became Allied operational the northern return route was too risky, which was why Germany ran the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen through the English Channel from Brest back to Germany, humiliating the hell out of the Royal Navy and Airforce. But that was a one shot affair for capital ships. [ March 19, 2003, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 A simple yet effective answer to this problem would be the boost system. Launch the Heavy Cruisers and battleships from a location and Germany to simulate historical routes unless the Icelandic port is captured...they pour out into the North Atlantic though Transports cannot be carried in tow<unless we were to charge 3 times> Being slow, unarmed and very cumbersome transports would be easy targets for the smallest British Man 'O War.. I would love if the Designers would allow the Graf Zeppelin to be built earlier... We do have our own scenarios, although I would like to see it in the game as a Battleship you cannot increase the Strength on until a certian timeframe. It would balance out the pathetic German Naval forces, heck, take the sub it doesn't add much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Liam Agreed 100% about the boost idea; I suggested something similar a few months ago for warships and U-boats, in the North Atlantic Forum, but it didn't get anywhere, which is why now I'd just like an expanded map with some provision for the fjiords. Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser weren't very large, only capable of handling 40 aircraft each, they'd need to operate together in order to amount to anything. I think the British Aircraft carrier counters actually represent one regular teamed with one small aircraft carrier. In the scenarios I make that include German carriers I team the two of them up, except for Brest-Litovsk game, where Germany came out ahead in the First World War. Without a treaty of Versailles I figure Germany would have had two full sized carriers by 39 and give each counter the appropriate name. As for Battleships, Germany had plans for the larger Hindenburg class with 16" guns, but they were pretty much just larger Bismarcks and not a new design -- they still had the exposed rudder and radar area design flaws. [ March 20, 2003, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I suppose I'm trying to look for more of a Kriegsmarine because the Italian fleet is the only naval strength for the Axis. I think that a Kiel-Pacific Warp would make at least the ability to have real sea battles interesting! Playability is what the games about The expanded roles of U-boats is very appealing to me. They are wolves of the water, they don't prey about bigger predators they hunt the weak meat. and were deadly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragoon19 Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Denmark is the key to going in or out of the Baltic Sea. Putting sea mines around the Danish island is a easy trick stopping all allied movement in and all german out. IMO anyone in control of DK should be able to close the Baltic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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