zappsweden Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Imagine the following. Allies play a traditional strategy. We are in February 1941, Axis has not gotten any minors due to bad luck. Suddenly, Allied DOW Spain but only as a fake, no actual attack. The result is Axis wont have their 120 MPP from the minors, the minors stay neutral. They get some Spain units instead of minors due to the DOW. Russia and especially USA join abit later. Is not that gamey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Zapp: You compare Spain with the Rome gambit, thats like comparing apples and oranges... Against the Rome gambit no counter was possible, success rate around 100 %, Italy out of the war and 95 % of the Axis players would surrender. Therefore it has been forbidden (BTW: I have won against the Rome gambit as Axis and never lost to it...But its really unfair and boring against nearly every other player) But Spain is a normal allied strategy. Risky, counters are possible and even if successful Allies have no huge advantage, only a small one. But thats the case with every strategy: if successful the initiating side has an advantage. Otherwise it wouldnt do it . e.g. if Allies go for Med and sink the italian fleet they have an advantage. If Axis is clever and hides the fleet or send air cover it fails and Allies have a disadvantage... hundreds of other possible examples. BTW: declaring war to Spain without taking it in 1941 would be very silly from Allies, nobody did it until now (at least I dont know anyone) and I am pretty sure nobody will do it if he wants to win the game....frees up all Axis units ready for Spain invasion, readiness penalty and Axis will be perfectly prepared for Barbarossa since they have to do nothing else any more... A smaller front doesnt make much difference if they can place everything at the german border. Try it against me and you will loose faster than you can say "I surrender" [ August 21, 2003, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 No, the Axis units attacking spain in Spring 1940 are not needed elsewhere. They are at the Polish border anyway when Barbarossa begin, so no difference if they get freed up. Are u in a game Terif? I cannot see u on ICQ [ August 21, 2003, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Originally posted by zappsweden: Suddenly, Allied DOW Spain but only as a fake, no actual attack. The result is Axis wont have their 120 MPP from the minors, the minors stay neutral. They get some Spain units instead of minors due to the DOW. Russia and especially USA join abit later. Is not that gamey? This exactly what happened to me against Nimitz. He knew this rule and just declared war, nothing else. It was after this I wrote a thread about this stupid thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Kuniworth: Dont panic . Perhaps you are stunned at the first moment if Allies do something unusual, but concentrate on how to use his actions for yourself and against the enemy. In this case a faked DoW against Spain. Believe me: Allied situation is worser with a DoW than without. The only advantage is to confuse the Axis player :confused: and throw him out of concept. Be happy about the allied fault, rethink your plans, do the right things and everything will turn good. I wont tell you exactly what to do, the most fun comes from doing something by yourself and finding out how it works. Not from reading about or following advices... Zapp: It depends on what you do with your units ... The point is: you get 6 minor units instead of 7. Spain is Axis much earlier than usual + Gibraltar + virtual connection to Africa = a lot of mpp. After Barbarossa you get 3 times the plunder for the minors you conquer. USA is delaved several turns, Russia 1-2 turns. Axis have plenty of time to prepare, much better than usual. Thats a lot better than some mpp they dont get for this period from their normal minors. In contrary, the 1-2 turns longer time give them more mpp than usually in the end. Perhaps 2 russian armies near Odessa escape the initial onslaught, but everything else in Russia near the border is dead...The minors will be conquered one turn before USA enters. Thats another thing: Axis loose 120 mpp but Allies loose 180 mpp/turn until the minors get converted. My opinion is: DoW Spain without conquering it would be a bad move for Allies. But I think discussing in the forum if a Spain strategy (or which..) is an advantage or disadvantage for either side leeds to nothing. It has advantages and disadvantages and the result depends on your playing style. Its your choice which strategy you choose. If you think it gives you an advantage or it would make fun then try it, else leave it. Allies have so many possible strategies: Tech, fighting, Med, Norway etc... Spain is only one more option. [ August 21, 2003, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Condor Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 A fake attack against Spain in 1941 would be annoying, if u have all yer troops ready for assault and u dont get the experience but it would delay US a lot, i would look to invade elswhere, wouldnt do real harm IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 What is really different with the Spain Gambit from all the other gambits and DOW in this game is that Germany gets robbed of 3 minor nations. Flaw or meant to be? I do not know [ August 22, 2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Yes, the difference is the Spain strategy creates a whole new game and players have to think about their strategy. It is not possible to use the old (in the meantime a bit boring) standard strategy when the Spain thing happens. The effect is it creates a totally different and exciting game with new front lines and possibilities. And thats the fun of SC: discovering something new and developing new tactics/strategies. And it has not the abiltiy to crush Axis or to provide a huge advantage for Allies. The game is still balanced, depending on both sides actions. Strategy and tactic become more important than in the standard game. Therefore I find it is very good it works this way and I dont want to miss this possibility. [ August 22, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Originally posted by zappsweden: What is really different with the Spain Gambit from all the other gambits and DOW in this game is that Germany gets robbed of 3 minor nations. Flaw or meant to be? I do not know Flaw, Hubert knows it but wont fix it. He is done with SC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Condor Posted August 22, 2003 Author Share Posted August 22, 2003 It might not be a flaw, if the 3 minors will still join axis despite the invasion in Spain, nobody will dare to try it, people would try instead an invasion in Norway, less risky, easier in logistics and in recourses. The problem is that, right now, an invasion in Norway is a much more desfavourable move that an invasion in Spain, i think in a future most players will go for Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Condor. You are implying that the intention of the 3 minor robbing is because Spain should be more favourable than Norway? Why should anyone design the game so that it steers the game into a non-historical Spain Gambit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 This is a flaw, JerseyJohn even told us in an earlier thread this; "I think it's a flaw and got there by a different route; in making scenarios I've found that putting either Sweden or Spain on either side seems to prevent the Axis minors from joining it. When activating those countries now I write in the Scen Description USE HISTORICAL MINOR ALLY ENTRY, other wise they remain neutral." FLAW FLAW FLAW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Kuni. Thanks for mentioning that, I think several of us were finding this out independantly of each other at about the same time. I've been trying to correct some of the scenarios at Otto's because at the time they were sent I didn't understand this situation. I'm wondering if Hubert will correct this, along with some other things that have been discussed -- such as tweaking Tank groups and Carriers -- in another patch. If so, I hope he also takes the opportunity to add weak HQs (2 points, even weaker than the 3 pt Gamelin) to Poland (southeast of Warsaw), Finland (x2hexes east of Helsinki), Greece (north of Athens), Sweden (northeast of Stockholm), Spain (northwest of Madrid), Romania (on either oil well) and Yugoslavia (east of Belgrade). In addition to enhancing existing scenarios these additions provide new options for those of us who enjoy creating new ones. [ August 22, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Condor Posted August 22, 2003 Author Share Posted August 22, 2003 Zapp If people says its a flaw, then its a flaw, but as invading Spain is a bad move for allies, by dennying axis the 3 minors from joining it turns into a good move which implies more playability so i thought it might not be a flaw. More options for allies (norway,med,persia..)=> better. BUT maybe this move now is TOO GOOD, now we dont know ( For u it seems its already decided). If this moves adds more playability why forbid it? and dont tell me again the rome invasion thingy please!. All i have thought about it is that, yes, the move is very good, but i think that just tweaking the bid system could make it more fair. We will see in the future. Kuni, JerseyJohn Sweden also??? hmmm, interesting... [ August 22, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Codename Condor ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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