U-Boots rule Atlantic!

[KevGaming]

Got to hand it to you Hubert the changes to naval surprise makes using U-Boots a worth while exercise!

Just finished a game (using the default difficulty settings + FoW +USSR neutral) my U-Boot fleet was blasting the British convoys out of the water, between 20 - 40 MPPs per turn!

Normally I just throw my U-Boots into the fray as soon as I get them, usually get spotted and sunk within a couple of turns

This time I changed tactics and waited till the fall of Netherlands and France before using the points from them to build a fleet of 4 boats (had to wait two turns to get them all built in the French ports in between buying two more aircraft and an HQ 'Rommel') also sent the Kiel boat down the coast of France and out into the Atlantic. Had to repair it enroute though British and French fighters plus a British cruiser knocked it down to 2! It survived due to my airfleets all under control of HQs.

The first three boats were sent off to the coast of Canada (Original Atlantic boat plus the two French based ones) taking two turns to get into position. These were closely followed by the next two French based boats a turn later and the Kiel boat (now repaired) a turn after them.

The first group of three were positioned two hexes away from Canadian coast middle boat in line with Halifax with a boat two hexes above and below it. Took 23 MPPs. The original Atlantic boat took 7 the previous turn as it got into position early. This is probably why the British sent two cruisers out to investigate. Both were surprised by my boats knocking 1 and 2 points off for the loss of 2 and 3. My turn saw both cruisers being sunk both attacked by two U-Boots each. Lost between 3 and 4 points of damage off three of the boats with one receiving no damage at all!

The remaining two boats take up position two or three hexes east of the rest. Took 26 MPPs off Britain that turn.

The British response is to send a battleship and cruiser to break my blockade and get surprised by the two trailing boats and then viciously sunk by the other packs.

Britain did not send another ship into the mid Atlantic after this. I was able to keep 5 boats on station letting the 6th return to refit, then rotating this until they were all back up to 11.

While this battle for the Atlantic was taking place the Luftwaffe sunk a battleship that made the mistake of sailing down the English channel, destroyed 2 RAF units and the FAF!

The demo ended two turns after my U-Boots started taking 40 MPPs off of Britain. By this time all 6 boats were crowded within 4 hexes of Canada.

Donitz would have been proud.

[Briggs]

It's good to hear! I myself am greatly interested in the Battle of the Atlantic. I do pretty much what you said, but I prefer to hunt of the Eastern shore of the United States. One U-Boot can sink usualy around 12 MPP in that area. It's a veritable Operation Drumbeat.

I was always irritated at how innefective U-Boats were in Axis and Allies, and how their presence didn't dent the English economy. But now, thanks to Hubert and his magnificent game, my Wolves of the Deep shall show thier teeth!

Huzzah!

[KevGaming]

Originally posted by Panzer Lehr:

I do pretty much what you said, but I prefer to hunt of the Eastern shore of the United States. One U-Boot can sink usualy around 12 MPP in that area. It's a veritable Operation Drumbeat.

Never even thought about having Unterseeboots off American coast, DOH!

Cheers for enlightening me to this major oversight!

[Briggs]

My pleasure! I'm always looking out for others who are fully appreciative of the capabilities of our hunters of the deep. Here's to good hunting, and big, fat convoys loaded with supplies!

[Briggs]

I find the best place to sit is in the area between Canada and the US. And get close to the shore, too. The closer you get, the better. And yes, I think the cap on the MPP's destroyed is 40. I find that the Battle of the Atlantic is a very fragile thing. With each U-Boot flotilla (I'm assuming they're flotillas) costing 358 MPP's, you really have to be carefull.Early on in the war with the French and the Royal Navy on the prowl, it can and will be costly. Let's assume that you have an U-Boot pulling 10 MPP's per turn. That's 30 and 1/2 turns it has to sit there until it pays for itself. That's a helluva long time. Now, assuming it's going to take some damage along the way, there's the cost of repairs, etc. It will probably take anywhere from 3 to 4 years for your U-Boot to pay itself off (in MPP's). If you care for my advice, I would hold off on any dramatic U-Boot campaign until Germany has secured an Industrial Technology level of at LEAST 2, and a Sub technology of at least 2 as well. The fine line -in my mind- is striking the balance between U-Boot and Armour manufacturing and research. If you dump too much into armour, you risk losing the battle of the Atlantic. If you dump too much into the Battle of the Atlantic, you risk losing the war in Russia.

On the other hand, Britain only recieves something to the order of 130 MPP's after the fall of the Low Countries. So, if the U-Boots are sapping 40 per turn along with maybe 10 by the Italians in the Med, then the British economy is sapped of over 1/3 of it's income.

Also, when the Americans decide to enter the war, how are they going to transport their troops over when there are 3 U-Boot flotillas sitting outside their harbours?

To build or not to build, that is the question. In my opinion, I would have to say yes, build. But, build in moderation. I know it's a kick to see 8 Wolfpacks roaming the waves, but think of the number of tanks you could have thundering across the Russians Steppes with all that steel.

Anyway, didn't mean to preach. Have fun.

[dragoon19]

If U-boats really ruled the atlantic it should be possible to force the UK into a neutral position towards Germany by using extensive sub warfare!

This neutral stance could be forced upon the UK if the Battle of the Atlantic is lost. Loseing could be defined as the UK suffering 40 or so MPPS damage each turn (this seems to be max for the atlantic) over a certain period of time say half year.

Ps. Will the max damage for subs in the atlantic rise when the US joins the war.

Dragoon19

[dragoon19]

BTW I got a sub to do 15 MPPs of Damage at hex 7,11

:cool:

any higher !

Dragoon19

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Panzer Lehr:

To build or not to build, that is the question. In my opinion, I would have to say yes, build. But, build in moderation. I know it's a kick to see 8 Wolfpacks roaming the waves, but think of the number of tanks you could have thundering across the Russians Steppes with all that steel.

Good advice, poetically stated.

As you are an admitted armor admirer in general, and the elegantly designed Panther-A in particular, I would mostly expect that you would favor the latter strategy.

Myself, I am more inclined to prefer the U-boats, for this reason -- you are not only depriving UK of convoy-MPPs, but also forcing them to spend other hard-earned points in repair of damaged vessels. They pretty much have to maintain their vaunted fleet or else the Americans will have a devil of a time transporting troops across the Atlantic. If USA is left to build their own convoy task-forces, then they are not also building Shermans and Wolverines, etc.

You are right that this also depends on research decisions, and Industrial advances. 358 for each boat can drain the treasury to such an extent that your Drang Nacht Osten will suffer.

Some kind of balance sounds about right, and that is what will make each game unique -- how to spend the limited MPPs to defeat that... cursed blood drooling foe, eh?

[KevGaming]

Good advice there Panzer Lehr.

It's going to be great fun trying to balance the land, air, sea forces needed to win the full game.

If Russia stays out of the war for the first year it may just be all the Germans need to win the Battle for the Atlantic and conquer Britain!

After that panzers east!

[Norse]

Originally posted by KevGaming:

If Russia stays out of the war for the first year it may just be all the Germans need to win the Battle for the Atlantic and conquer Britain!

After that panzers east!

In my opinion, based on what we've seen in the demo, I think going very heavily on the subs is the way to go. Buy some sub packs and drop a chit on "submarine tech" by the time France falls.

Now after France falls, you can begin to force the UK player into a battle of the Atlantic. You will constantly deprive UK of some much needed MPP's. Let's face it, UK's 130's isn't alot if Germany puts heavy weight on UK. Germany should be well over 200 by now, maybe more, plus Italy is in the war. Bulgaria and the others will join shortly as well, UK will be hard pressed.

The thing that comes to my mind, is that going heavy on the atlantic as the axis will force UK to counter attack in the atlantic, which is good! Maybe UK buys some sonar tech and all that. And even better if you manage to get the Royal Navy to battle you outside Canada, because then you have the perfect opertunity to launch operation Sea Lion!! Just let the army in France stand by and wait for the opertunity. UK have by then spent so much MPP's to keep the upper hand in the battle of the Atlantic, that the british isles is ready to become Axis soil. Just a simple kick in the front door and the job is done

Even if Operation Sea Lion can't be launched and the axis must go after Russia instead, then it is a very good axis investment to have a presence in the atlantic. As already mentioned, this will force the allies to spend more MPP's there, MPP's that can't be used to roll over France as liberation armies.

I definately think this is the way to go, nice to see that others like this approach too.

Britain first, definately. Just one more thing, if UK falls, then Gibraltar opens up, and the Italian navy can sail out into the Atlantic, possibly turning the tide against the US fleets. That helps the forces fighting in Russia alot.

If you don't invest in the atlantic, but decide to go after Russia all the way, then you will quickly find yourself in a position where you must operate many units away from Russia in order to make defences against the allies in the west. Now imagine the situation if you owned the atlantic...

~Norse~

[Desert Dave]

One thing I would like to see, eventually, is some way to model USA's tremendous number of convoys to Britain.

You could either do it from the beginning, with some version of Lend-Lease, or simply pick it up when USA enters the war.

Something on the order of 20 MPPs per turn, which would provide another convoy route to attack with the wolfpacks.

This would also serve a good purpose -- by spreading out the convoy lanes, it would force the Allies to search farther afield in what is admittedly a restricted ocean area.

Seems like game-balance could be maintained by slightly decreasing the cost of the U-boats? Or, by reducing Commonwealth committments? I don't know, there must be a way that would maintain the status quo?

Anything that more realistically portrays the immense amount of tonnage that was shipped from America's factories would only enhance the Battle of the Atlantic.

It wouldn't have to be an exact replication, but something to add a little more sub-chasing flavor.

[Briggs]

I believe I heard someone say that after the US joins the war, there's is extra tonnage to be sunk.

[Narayan Sengupta]

Kev,

The problem with U-boats is the ROI. It takes 400 points or so to build a U-boat, and then it takes 40 turns (at 10 points per turn) to get a 100% return on investment.

Narayan

[Narayan Sengupta]

BTW, The problem with purchasing the Allied U-boats is they don't appear to be able to attack anything other than Axis surface vessels.

[Jollyguy]

Return on Investment for Subs

I'm not sure that the only analysis for a sub is it costs you 358, interdicts 10, which means it takes 36 turns to breakeven.

Assume the Germans have 270 MPP, the British 135, for a 2 to 1 ratio. If the British can be knocked down to 100, the ratio jumps to 2.7 to 1. That's quite an increase that over time can weigh down an opponent, and limit his ability to wage war.

Plus, subs will force the allies to hunt for them and incur losses while doing so, and allocate losses to surface ships to do this. If you've only got 100 MMP to play with, you can't sustain too many losses for too long.

I see a number of players hot on the Atlantic was strategy. I wish we could do PBEM now with the gold beta, because I believe I've already developed some effective Allied countermeasures against Nazi subs. It ain't going to be a cake walk against human players!

Good Luck

[KevGaming]

Originally posted by Narayan Sengupta:

Kev,

The problem with U-boats is the ROI. It takes 400 points or so to build a U-boat, and then it takes 40 turns (at 10 points per turn) to get a 100% return on investment.

Narayan

But they do pay for themselves in other ways.

The way I use them is a two fold strategy: disruption of convoys and raiding on Britain's surface fleet. You only have to severely damage or sink a cruiser for a U-Boot to be considered paid for.

Germany can replace it's U-Boot fleet much faster than Britain can build/repair it's surface fleet!

And if Britain looses its' fleet...

[Briggs]

My dear, dear U-Boats; how I do love thee so.

Your 358 MPP U-Boat is 36 MPP's cheaper with Industrial Tech level 1, by the way.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but after the fall of France, I dump all my points into rebuilding my airfleets to at least 70% (If they need it, 100% for units over 70%) and the rest go to Industrial Technology. I believe that each point in Industrial Tech that you get knocks 10% off the going price for your unit.

So,

U-Boat Tech level 1 - 358

w/ indust. tech. 1 - 322

w/ indust. tech. 2 - 290

w/ indust. tech. 3 - 261

w/ indust. tech. 4 - 235

w/ indust. tech. 5 - 211

Pretty cheap, isn't it? 14 less turns to redeem itself.

By the way, the max I've been able to sink is 50 MPP's. 40 in the Atlatic, 10 in the med. (You can get all 10 points with 1 Italian sub to the east of Malta).

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by KevGaming:

Got to hand it to you Hubert the changes to naval surprise makes using U-Boots a worth while exercise!

I would agree, and add my grateful thanks!

In the few Gold Demo games I have played (...and, admittedly, it is not a large enough sample size to form steadfast conclusions) it seems as though the changes benefit the Royal Navy more than the U-boats. :eek:

Since the effects of Surprise! have been diminished, it SEEMS to be easier for the AI (and most certainly for a Human opponent) to survive long enough to counter-attack.

Then again, this underscores the need for hunting in packs, so that you might swarm the ASW. Also, the benefits of Research (either Sonar or Advanced Subs) becomes that much more important.

All in all, I am very satisfied at the changes in the naval war, and even, forgive me, would like to see even LESS damage per attack.

But, I realize that the ground-war is and was paramount, and this is a relative side-show. It's just that it is so much FUN to engage in the ocean-going hide and seek, that I guess I just want it to last longer, and cost less to repair or reinforce those sleek combatants.

[Ancient One]

I don't understand why so many people think subs are underpowered. In my opinion they are by far the strongest and most cost efficient naval unit there is. In a recent game I destroyed the entire UK fleet with subs surprisingly easily. I could not have done that by building any other naval unit.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Ancient One:

In a recent game I destroyed the entire UK fleet with subs surprisingly easily. I could not have done that by building any other naval unit.

(... SHHHHH! Don't let this secret get out, would you! We'll have to play some of these guys in PBEM.)

Well, I have done the same, although, so far it is not QUITE as easy to do in the Gold demo, since the effects of surprise have been diminished -- though that can work both ways, so it is probably to no one's particular advantage.

A couple of games I have played the game as Raeder triumphant and even built up an Atlantic fleet of 4-5 subs, BB Bismark, one CA and a sea modified Stuka-launching flat-top. The RN survived for a single astonished! :eek: turn after blundering into the Kreigsmarine.

But, a lot depends on what the AI will do in the campaign game -- once you sink those 3-4 (or more, who cares -- bring 'em on! -- if you use the Free French option) ships that paddle out to investigate, will the AI build new ones?

If they (... or, your typically East-mesmerized human opponent) do not build more, then I wonder how the USA is going to get their troop transports across the Atlantic? They would be sitting silhouette ducks. :cool:

Regardless, this will force USA, if not Britain, to build escorts, and as we know, those capital ships cost a fortune!

Tech level 2 subs on the other hand, are what -- 290 MPPs? The Allies better hope and pray that Germany doesn't develop ANY tech for the subs, or, sorry to say, there will be no flowers & kisses thrown after D-Day.

Which allows the Axis to leave a couple corps in the West, and concentrate the full might of the Wehrmacht on Russia and in helping Balboa in the Med -- it sounds easy, and hey, I for one suspect... it just might BE easy.

[Guest Mike]

I think the answer to high tech u-boats is not ships - it's high tech strategic bombers.

This was discussed a while ago - a few ships cruising around to find u-boats, then pound them from land.