Minor Country Production

[bloodstar]

I wonder, how difficult would it be to encode some sort of minor country production into the SC code. Personally I would like to see the minor countries able to generate their own units from time to time. Based on their production capacity (or a percentage of) For example, if Ireland is invaded, it should take a long time for a corps to be generated. But say Sweeden is invaded, what would prevent them from generating a corps every so often, or even an Army or (egads) an air force every once in a great while.

Obviously game balance issues apply, but with some tweaking it could certainly add some flavor.

Along a related vein, when the the UK is knocked out of the war, all the minor countries are no longer able to rebuild or repair their units because they no longer have a resource pool to work from.

Would it be viable to transfer ownership of minor countries to the US (or if not available) to the USSR player in the case of the allies, and in the case of germany, to italy.

Its really a minor issue, but in the case of an active US player and the Soviets holding the line, having canada adding their resources and having their unit(s) rebuilt (or other minor countries that are allied) could tip the scale one way or another.

Thanks for reading and happy invading

[JerseyJohn]

A good idea. As it is now, countries like Romania lose their armies in Russia and that's the end of their army! In reality, if a minor had excessive losses beyond it's borders, the replaced units generally remained at home. The difference being at least they'd be there as a defensive force in case the invasion front was breached.

A good idea worth implementing.

[Norse]

Because a minor nation cannot build units on it's own, does not mean the minor nation is not sending off it's soldiers to war.

Think of it as a chain of command, the initial armed forces of a nation belongs to it's own chain of command. Once the nation is occupied though, it sends off it's MPP's to say Germany, who in turn use the MPP's to build more units.

When Germany builds a unit based on the MPP from Belgium, Denmark and Norway, you can bet that you find "Legion Norwegen", the SS from Belgium and so on in there.

Clue here being that they now operate in Third Reich uniforms, and benefit from Rommels chain of command (HQ's).

Along a related vein, when the the UK is knocked out of the war, all the minor countries are no longer able to rebuild or repair their units because they no longer have a resource pool to work from.

Would it be viable to transfer ownership of minor countries to the US (or if not available) to the USSR player in the case of the allies, and in the case of germany, to italy.

I abselutely agree with this. Not neccesarily unlimited sharing, but maybe a 1000 mpp limit?

I have also complained about the effect of a British defeat before. When UK is defeated, even the Free French surrenders, which makes abselutely no sence, cosidering that they drew supply and lend-lease from USA!

~Norse~

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Norse:

Because a minor nation cannot build units on it's own, does not mean the minor nation is not sending off it's soldiers to war.

Or, more likely, having them sent off without any delicate inquiries as to their martial desires. :eek:

Having a few new corps appear once every other year or so for the Minors does not seem worth the interface complication. Norse's interpretation seems most appropriate here.

[bloodstar]

To me, I don't see how it would be so complicated. Just a simple check,

if UK in war,

mmp go to UK

else if USA in war

mmp go to USA

else if USSR in war

mmp go to USSR

same thing with germ and italy

as for minor country production. having a counter that keeps internal track of how much each country has to spend towards an item doesn't seem hard... heck you could make the units half strength, so the major country would have to spend points into them.... and just make a checklist that states what type of unit the minor country is attempting to buy... corp, army, fighter (maybe cruisers) and go from there...

just thinking... them main thing... it adds flavor, and gives an added advantage to having a country on your side... or liberating a minor country....

[JerseyJohn]

Immer Etwas

"Or, more likely, having them sent off without any delicate inquiries as to their martial desires. "

In the late thirties a friend of my dad's, having worked hard for twenty years managed to set some money aside despite the Depression to visit his native Italy and family. Unfortunately he forgot he was still a citizen of the place.

Not long after getting off the gangplank in Napoli, he was informed that he'd never fulfilled his military obligation and was mediately drafted. After a smidgeon of training he was also told that he'd volunteered to represent his country in Spain.

His enthusiasm for all this can be easily imagined.

I heard the old boy telling about his adventures when I was a kid in the fifties. Skeptics will say he was embellishing, but I don't think so.

I wish I had a film of him explaining with his animated hands how, when the shooting started, a pair of corporals dragged him out to a big water cooled machine gun -- threatening to shoot him if he didn't stop screaming -- and chained him either to the gun or a spike in the groung, leaving him enough room to move around but making it impossible to run off.

He said that when the smoke cleared an officer came over and patted him on the back and said he'd fought heroically! Probably he was still chained to the damn thing.

He added in broken English, "What Hero -- the other sumuvabitches, they get me it wouldda been up against a wall and POP!"

Pretty fair motivation.

Eventually getting back to Naples, the Italian government was nice enough to thank him for volunteering and, ingrate that he was, he scraped together whatever he still had and boarded the next Brooklyn bound ship.

I'll bet there are a lot of similar war stories out there that never make it to the documentaries or into the history books.

[ May 08, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by JerseyJohn:

I'll bet there are a lot of similar war stories out there that never make it to the documentaries or into the history books.

I'll bet you are right as rain on that one. Kilroy was everywhere during WW2, but not always able or willing to elaborate on what... he thought he saw.

I have now lived long enough to know this much: any footloose Travelers who do not pause long enough to actively collect these charming old tales, whether told by relatives, or Studs Terkel, or an apparent derelict sitting on a park-bench feeding the pigeons, is missing the REAL DEAL education.

I recall a quote I once heard, though I cannot remember who it is attributed to, well, anyway, it goes like this: "Youth is a gift of nature, Age is a work of Art." (... of course, being a little older myself, I would necessarily take some satisfaction in received wisdom such as this, yes? )

As we have learned, college course-work or reading books does not remotely convey the emotions and ironies and zest that you will get when watching & listening first hand.

BTW, thanks for a very funny (... though, probably not so very hilarious to him, at the time) and well-told story. It makes you laugh, and also wince a little, inside.

[JerseyJohn]

Immer Etwas

And thank you for creating the subject -- it was one of those memories I hadn't talked about in years and without prompting it might been forgotten in a year or two. Now I have it fresh and clear again.

Speaking of college and the world at large, one of my history professors in the sixties fought in that same war but for the other side. An American idealist, he'd volunteered for the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.

We came to know each other pretty well on a pastry and coffee basis after I'd taken his course, and had numerous discussions about the Depression, WW II (which he'd also fought in) and the Cold War, but he'd never discuss Spain very much other than to say it was horrible.

What he did speak freely about was the way the government made life miserable for him all through the fifties, despite the fact he'd won a Bronze Star in Europe (another topic he didn't discuss very much).

Considered a marginal communist due to activities he'd attended two decades earlier, he was turned down for numerous jobs and frequently he was called to answer questions about people he'd known in the thirties.

The old Prof. said he was always pushed for testimony even if he didn't remember much about the people in question. He also said after a while he sat shrugging silently and the G-men would practically carry on without him!

At the time none of that interested me much. In '67 I was pretty right wing and, though I like him a lot, I still regarded him as a reformed commie. What I wanted was the war stories he was unwilling to discuss. I've always regretted knowing him when I did; had it been a decade or two later I might have really learned a few things.

[ December 13, 2002, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[82ndReady]

Norse wrote:

Because a minor nation cannot build units on it's own, does not mean the minor nation is not sending off it's soldiers to war.

Why not allow the controling major nation be allowed to create corps within that countries borders. As it is now Germany cannot build any units in Finland or Norway. Although they are allowed to build in cities where the city is a 5 or higher and only within that city hex, does this sound right? When units reorganize or muster there orders are to assemble at the assigned way point determined by the HQ! Since we are the HQ and make that decision what does it matter if we want all of our armies built in Norway or Iraq for that matter! There can always be a limit to how many and where were allowed.

Anyone elses thoughts on this???

[JerseyJohn]

82nd Ready --

"Why not allow the controling major nation be allowed to create corps within that countries borders."

For one thing they'd probably be much better units (anti-tank guns, etc.) than the normal troops of that minor. I'd settle for that as an alternative, but I'd really prefer the minor country being able to replace or even add to it's own army and airforce.

Countries like Sweden, Switzerland and Spain that had airforces in Europe, usually flew obsolete or obsolescent German models.

[ December 12, 2002, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]