Upgrading units

[Panzer Joe]

One of the worst parts of technology in SC is the abuse of tech advances. Especialy the Airfleets.

I propose is to have 6 different units of each type each one being more expencive than the last. When you get a new unit type you would then start producing new units with the new technology. But your old units would stay stagnet.

Each new unit would be 5-10% more expencive than the older version. Tanks, bombers, infantry and ships would be 5% per level for a total of +25% cost at maximum level. Airfleets and Rockets would be 10% more expencive per level for a total of +50%.

We would also need an upgrade function. Any unit at full strength with a 10 supply level could upgrade to the current level of tech for 25% of the cost of the new unit. This is because it is very hard to upgrade units in the field.

Lots of new dynamics would come out of this.

1> You won't want to spend money upgrading garisons that are not expecting attack. (You won't see tiger tanks in France until the Germans are sure you are going to invade.)

2> You will have some units in the field that never get the new equipment. If you realy want the new equipment you will need to rotate the old units out of the line for rest and refit.

3> Armies will try to skip generations. Just because you have L1 air fleets you might not want to upgrade them all. Give some units the new ME-109g for killing the enemy fighters the rest will have to live with the 109e and escort bombers.

4> You may not want to upgrade all the units. alot of times it is far more important to get more bodies on the field than to upgrade. (At the end of the war Hitler was making brand new green units with Panther tanks. At the same time many veteran units were scrounging parts for thier old Cz-38 or Pz-III.)

[JerseyJohn]

Good area to comment upon, in the past we've felt that, on this scale, the best way would be to click on a particular unit in a path to the capital (by land or sea with linked ports), expend a cerain amount of MPPs and that unit becomes upgraded.

Your idea sounds like a good solution. Another, more involved method would also be to allow partial upgrades; an L=0 unit being improved with less obsolete equipment to L=1,2,3 ... at a proportionatly lower cost than being completely upgraded in one step.

[ September 22, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[kurt88]

2> You will have some units in the field that never get the new equipment. If you realy want the new equipment you will need to rotate the old units out of the line for rest and refit.

I like that idea.What would the conditions for a unit in the frontline be for upgrading?Unit must have at least five strenght and 3/4/5 supply?

What about letting upgrading depend on supply values?Units in a city could be an exception?

Anyone noticed how this suggestion again can be tied into an event-engine?

[Night]

I like this Idea a lot, however there have to be some changes.

Currently, during the height of fighting, Who can afford to both spend 250 on the research point, THEN tons upon tons of MPPs to upgrade units? No one. Esp. not Russia and Germany, who spend almost everything replacing losses to unit's in the feild and/or creating new unit's to defend positions. No economies currently will have enough MPPs to upgrade enough unit's to be effective. You have to ethier change the amount of money that a research point costs down to 150 prehaps, or reduce the cost of the upgrade.

Anyone who has played a hard fought game know's that it is such an extreme strain just to replace losses to strength on unit's in the field, that few new unit's can be created during major fighting, esp. in Russia, Early France, Late France, and Italy.

I think this system would give a serious unbalanced advantage to the Western Allies, since England and the U.S. don't participate in as much major fighting as Russia Germany and Italy, They can sit and upgrade as many unit's as they want given enough time, and become invincable to out-dated Axis forces.

I very much like this idea, but it needs to be scaled down a bit. Even though it wouldn't be very expensive to upgrade units, it would still become very hard for a struggling Germany toward the end of the war, like in real-life, where they HAD the technology, just not the means to build enough of them. Specificly Jet fighters, which would play over to the game well since Fighters have a large base cost to begin with, so Germany will have a tough time affording the new jets if they receive the tech in-game.

[Panzer Joe]

I was thinking you would need to have the unit at full strength and in very high supply. Upgrading units should only happen in a city or up close to a HQ unit.

This would make research less valuable but if you feal it is unfair to Germany and Russia give them a few free research points. Russia already starts with 3 free points and several great techs so maybe just give Germany 3 free points at the start to show their great technical skills at the start of the war.

You can even go farther and say Germany has a point of research commited to Jets, Rockets, and Subs. Since that was their top three military research projects. They didn't start developing heavy tanks till after the comanders reported how out classed they were to the French and British.

[ September 22, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Panzer Joe ]

[Panzer Joe]

Actualy this idea comes out of good old Panzer General.

[Piumarcobaleno]

Maybe there could be a fixed % that an unit gets new (already researched) equipment, on a basis similar to tech chits:

If you have tank tech 3, a unit with 0 has 15% to go to lev 1 each turn, a unit with 1 has 12% to go to lev 2, a unit with 2 has 9% to achieve lev 3 each turn, free of mpp expense.

Then you could have the option to do it 'the MPP way', paying for the upgrade, and getting it istantaneously.

Sure, actual numbers would have to be tested, to avoid a too lenghty auto-refit, or the opposite..

[Liam]

To add further to realism, some technology is not so difficult to upgrade, i.e. the snorkel for the u-boats, upgrade of the panzer 3-4 Turrets, and even modifications, on and on. Although say for instance the though whole upgrade of a Fighter from a 109e to a Me-262. It's not feesible. Nor say the upgraded Super U-boats planned for the end of the War. The alteration from the Panzer 3-4 to a Tiger/Panther. When the Tank would have to be sent to the scrap metal deparment and rebuilt like a Jaguar from two Bugs.

Definitely certian upgrades should be fairly automatic, perhaps allowing a certian amount of time to pass through the ranks. Also a fixed cost say for upgraded certian Special units per... Even the V-1 V-2 rockets are from a very different family. Although say very few modifications were neccessary for most Surface Navies to equip themselves with new Radar or sonar capabilities. Save being in a friendly port and at least a turn?

Ideas to throw out, that're already likely out there to add to realism, and throwing of monopilizing Immediate Tech Gains. Rather the more historical aspect of then using the tech gains, for instance the Germans were more advanced in most arenas aside from A-Bombs. Although they didn't have squat in production to put up against the Allies

so you get it