JerseyJohn Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Liam On Rommel his name came up here as the commander of a panzer division in England if Sea Lion had ever gotten off the ground. We were speculating about it's possible success as a Crete type operation with paratroopers capturing a port and airfields to allow more troops and supplies to be brought across the channel by plane and ship to expand the initial beachhead. If successful in that stage the speculation was German armor vs The Royal Tank Corps south of London. Rommel was promoted to corps commander after France and sent to North Africa where, at first he was technically in command of only the German troops, initially the 5th Motorized Div, which was renamed and eventually expanded into four German Divs (90th Lt, 164th, 15th&21st Panzers) and by El Alemain he was a Fieldmarshall and officially in command of the entire force. Erich von Manstein was too outspoken to rise above staff officer status, but his plans were used for both the Polish and Ardennes offensives. In the actual French invasion he commanded and infantry corps and rose quickly in Russia to the rank of Fieldmarshal, which is why I labelled those photos Four Fieldmarshals; two already there, two rising in 1940. Good point about Churchill and anti-semitism was fairly rampant in Europe at the time. Ironically, it was pre-WW I Germany that had been the most hospitable nation for Jewish citizens. Hitler was convinced Japan would be useful in Attacking Asiatic Russia. Originally the Japanese envoys indicated that would be Japan's future course, but in 1938 two large battles were fought in Outter Mongolia between Soviet and Japanese troops -- an undeclared war. The Russians, making good use of the heavy tanks, artillery and larger numbers of aircraft over open terraign, soundly defeated the Japanese in both instances. Both Zhukov and Tojo commanded in the field. The Soviets concluded Japanese soldiers were excellent but their leadership was poor. The Japanese concluded they'd prefer not to fight the Ruskies. Hitler, unfortunately for his cause, never understood that Japan had changed it's course. After their occupation of French IndoChina and Roosevelt's embargoes, they felt occupation of the oil and rubber rich Dutch East Indies was there only course, and conlcluded they had to eliminate the U. S. Pacific threat to succeed. The reason Hitler declared war on the U. S. was two-fold: To give his U-boats freedom to attack all Atlantic shipping and also because he assumed Japan would reciprocate by declaring war on the U.S.S.R., pinning their Siberian Army down in Asia. But they didn't, of course. In June '41 Germany had not informed Japan of it's intention to invade Russia and in December Japan didn't tell Germany it was about to attack the United States. In August of 39 Germany told the Italians they had two years to prepare for a major European War. Italy invaded Greece while Hitler was attempting to draw them and their near ally neighbor, Yugoslavia, into the Axis. Working together was not an Axis strong point. [ January 03, 2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroupNorth Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Someone should do a book about WWII German commanders to investigate their redeeming dissent to Hitler. They were not innocent, yet hardly villains either. Runstedt, Rommel, Manstein, Guderian and many others, while part of the horrid Nazi machine, were also serious critics of Hitler and eventually wanted him dead. These men were often arrogant and highly efficient in offensive war, just like their Anglo-American counterparts, mind you. But they were Army, not like the cruel SS fanatics like Meyer who turned children into POW-killers. It shows that some commanders were respected because British officers paid the legal fees of some in 1945. Runstedt (or was it Manstein?) was redeemed later when he helped to redesign the West German army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Whoa! Just finishing a tough battle! I am stuck in the mud in Russia and fighting Montgomery & the Americans in Sweden. We took German scientists and gave them pardons. Regardless of what atrocities they'd committed. For it suited our tastes. Americans were the first to experiment with racial sterilizing. The Turks ethnically cleansed many of the Armenians in WW1. The Americans killed from 3-? million Native American Indians. The Spanish triple that #. Whenever we see something different, for instant Islam. Especially if it hits that spot in us and incites our hate. All humanbeings are in the essence capable of hating and committing barbaric acts. It's in the nature of the beast. I don't say that what the Germans did is justified by this I just merely explain it off in the way I know best. I hope that perhaps humanbeings can learn from this experience though with current events... I'm afraid "Those who cannot remeber the past, are condemned to repeat the past!" quoted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroupNorth Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 In Canada, we wiped out a lot of beavers so people could wear them on their heads back in Europe. The Indians were already warring amongst themselves. They wanted Euro arms, then invited the whites to pick sides and join them. It was difficult to stay out of the arms trade because if the French or British weren't trading, the Dutch certainly were, or vice versa. Thus it began and the arms trade opened up. But the most damage done was often via disease, often through contact with missionaries and traders. As terrible as the destruction of the Native nations was, remember, they were not exactly pacifists. Just normal human beings, meeting other humans with different aims and technology. One of the first things Champlain was asked upon arriving in what would be called New France: "Whiteman, do you wish to go out on a war party with us against our enemies? If so, please bring your firesticks." At first Champlain said no. But when the local population told him the French would get little trade as a result, he changed his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 GroupNorth "Someone should do a book about WWII German commanders to investigate their redeeming dissent to Hitler. They were not innocent, yet hardly villains either." The Fieldmarshal pictured here, Walther von Reichenau was the main culprit. As Sixth Army commander before Paulus and von Runstedt's successor (briefly) as Army Group South commander, he slavishly carried out all of the most vicious Nazi policies, one of the few high ranking Army Generals to do so. He died from a heart attack in early '42. Coincidentally his counterpart, von Bock, commander of Army Group Center, was also developing heart problems at that same time and retired from active service. A good point. I doubt we'll ever find out the real truth or much more than we already know. Army units did, on occasion, carry out executions of non-combatants just like the SS and certainly carried out reprisals and the execution of hostages. Often these had nothing to do with the local Army Group or even Army commander as they were not permitted to intervene, and when they did they were usually either transfered or dismissed, replaced by a National Socialist sympathizer. In which case the locals were in even worse trouble. As I see it the German field organizations were as follows: Regular (flying squads, etc.) SS -- murderers, soldiers if forced to be. Waffen SS Soldiers first, murderers on the drop of a hat. Wehremacht Soldiers, would murder if ordered to do so. Luftwaffe Field Troops some crack formations (para-troopers & Hermann Goering Panzer Division) but mostly ersatz troops, aircraft related technicians wastefully retrained as infantrymen. Served as soldiers and an exemplary record of not killing civilians, POWs or Partisans. Much of which may be because they were usually not stationed in hotbed zones. Still, they seem definitely to be the least homicidal of the lot. == At this point we've drifted just a bit away from Italy in this forum -- like perhaps rounding New Zealand en route to Antartica! [ January 04, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Liam -- "We took German scientists and gave them pardons. Regardless of what atrocities they'd committed. For it suited our tastes." Great point about the scientists and pardons. Remember the movie "Dr Strangelove" or, more realistically, Dr Werner von Braun! Not so much for dropping rockets on civillians, we did the same thing with bombs, but for using slave laborers in making them. === And thanks in no small part to your's truly, this Italian forum was last spotted drifting somewhere south of Tasmania. [ January 04, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 A soldier is a soldiers. There is no rules in love and in war! All Americans are Idealists that believe somehow that peace can be achieved by loving their fellow brothers to death<Ha!>. Well Ghandi, did okay with the pacifist strategy. We did rape the African and Native American cultures. It's nothing new, whenever a bigger stronger more advanced civilization comes along it always beats it's lesser into submission. From the Romans, to the beginning of time!<HEY! Anyone notice the how similar Roman Legions appear in movies with the Eagle staffs, the marching parades to Nazi Germany> Intelligent men knew it was wrong, just like now intelligent men know a lot. Though the masses aren't lead by intellect they're lead by greed and desire. I am playing a game right now, where I have done terribly. Even though I'm in N.Africa 1942 with an Italian HQ, tank, 2 armies, 2 fighters. Maybe 3 armies, and I lost the entire Italian fleet. My goal being the Suez. If it wasn't for 3 British Aircraft Carriers I would destroy Egypt and enter the MiddleEast. We'll see how it pans out. Also I have a huge Italian guard throughout Europe... I doubt Italians could've mobilized such an Army as I have given them. Maybe in 1950. They're stronger and more experienced than France at the onset of War in '40. Just bad luck and planning has kept them out of Greece, Vichy till late, and Iraq. If things had gone my way, by '41 I would own all that but probably under the Iron Cross cause I need the money for them not Italy. No way you can convince me Italian leadership and equipment could accomplish this! Not unless the British up and ran... or were outnumbered 27-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Liam Burning entire villages and slaughtering the inhabitants is not part of warfare. It isn't even smart as it turns the occupied population against it's garrisons and in extreme cases, such as what the Germans caused behind their own lines in Russia, causes the creation of large partisan forces and the harsher the measures taken against them the more partisans are created. The Americans were not idealists during WW II. Which is why you don't see any incidents of guerilla warfare behind American lines when the crossed into Germany. A few fanatic Werwolves/Woverine from the Hitler Youth, two of whom were executed by firing squad, and that was the end of it despite having been well organized ahead of time. German atrocities against civilians, their attempt to exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, etc., were all acts of blatant stupidity. The effort wasted against the Jews in itself might have cost them the war just in diversion of rolling stock! Slave labor was the most inefficient use of human beings imaginable and the idea of traipsing through countries babbling about racial superiority etc. still leaves me dumbfounded. Nazi treatment of conquered areas guaranteed their defeat from both without and within. What's this, a triumph of Nazi Arms? I hope it doesn't result in a padlock, but the time has come for a reality check. There is little true comparison between the Ancient Romans and the Third Reich. The Romans attempted to absorb every population they brought within their borders. They had massive slave populations and resorted to repression, but Judeans, Iberians, Britons, Guals, Syrians, Greeks, Germans, were all as eligible for Roman citizenship as the Italians. The Jews were not persecuted in ancient Rome because they were Jewish, but because they rebelled and slaughtered Roman garrisons. An even more vicious fight went on for nearly a century in Briton, yet, in his opening statements of the first volume of History of the English Speaking Peoples the author, Winston Churchill, describes the last three centuries of Roman occupation as being the happiest the average Briton would experience for many centuries to follow. In fact, the Britons petitioned Rome to leave it's garrisons in place even when those legions were needed more desperately in central Europe. The Romans built improvements and for most part governed wisely. The Nazis plundered, enslaved and executed. As one Holocaust survivor, talking about the Warsaw and other ghettos said, "When the Nazis controled things children could be photographed starving to death in the streets." I'll pass on a photo of children starving in the streets under Nazi rule, though there are plenty of them, I don't want this forum to be padlocked and that would be the inevitable result. The same would happen with concentration camp photos and scenes of civilians being executed in fields with smiling supermen snapping their cameras to send home some suivenere fun shots of good times in the East. But there is this other photo. The world seems to have disagreed with your opinon. They deserved what they got and it's too bad so many others such as Borman, Mengele and (for a time) Adolph Eichmann slipped away. [ January 04, 2003, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 I'm glad you feel strongly about this point! Though still you won't change my mind about history. YES<!>, the Nazis are the top Bad Guys of the 20th century, they had plenty of help! The Japanese did similar atrocities. The Rape of Nanking, the use of Asian women as prostitutes. They still don't recognize their crimes today<as mentioned here before> and they aren't seen like the Nazis were, infamous. The Nazis stand out to us, for they resemble us in a way. Look how our country has treated the black population and minorities if 15% of this countries white's had it's way they would execute every minority. Likewise for the minorities. In Nazi Germany in the 30s, Hitler tapped into that hatred and got the %15 in control of the country. Though I'm sure those are very rough and conservative estimates. In every white person there is a certian distaste. What would it take to elevate it to outright genocide if possible? ROMAN TIMES? Are you kidding me ever heard of Queen Bodaci<sp> she slaughtered hundreds of thousands of her own people and Romans after her daughter was raped by invading Romans. Remeber Spartacus, why did they rebel in such a way? They hated their Roman opressors. Rome, was a population of slaves. Most were treated awful, at certian points improvements were made. They were starving, average lifespan of 20 years. They'd be put into the Games and get eaten by animals, or raped by animals in Theatre and eatened. The average Roman Gent believed that a good night of entertainment was watching to slave gladiators chop either up. The comparison is astonishing. All other races were known as barbarians. During the 1800s when Americans purposely past out blankets with Pox in them to the Native Indians. The 7th cavlary charging through villages filled with hostile women and children.<got what was comming for them> 3 million American Indians were utterly wiped out after the disease...there is no exact figure, that's a guess. We didn't stop until the 20th century and there is still no love between the two peoples. It's hate, murder and Warfare. Right now if North Korea fires a nuke on the South... We'll have the right to kill every person in the North. We'll turn them into dust. That's moraly justifiable? No it's War! The Germans, were dominated by a Nationilistic Fever! A percentage of them resisted! They knew when they were beaten. Tired of dying, is what they were! Though I can't see us being that far from them in ways. It's just a few people and a few decisions that has made the difference. Idealism! Righteousness! Great men! Remeber Sherman, why do you think the Southern United States is still poor.. he taught the break away Confederacy a lesson.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Liam The Romans were not particularly nice people. They didn't live in a particularly nice age. Civilization was evolving. As it did the people themselves changed. The fifth century AD Romans didn't watch hungry beasts tearing people apart in the arenas. Neither did the first century AD Greeks. One Roman philospher is recorded as saying, while watching a criminal being cruelly executed, "Yes, I know what's he's done, but what have we done that we must watch this?" The Japanese were as bad as the Germans and so were the Russians, perhaps more so as their's were crimes against their own people. Every nationality of every age has some stain of blood and barbarity against them. In Vietnam the U. S. had it's My Li massacres, but they weren't on directives from above. When mass murder becomes an armies marching orders then something is wrong and it's probably heading for defeat. [ January 04, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Depending on the programming of those soldiers, I agree. It was a known fact that public SS executions in Russia demoralized the average German soldier. Though you can never turn your eyes away from the heart of man. We are a few million years removed from the Jungle. In Russia, Japan and Germany at those times. Those particular regimes were obviously behind.....as many Muslims are living in some 11th century Paradise. The hate crimes are relative in my opinion. The Russians hated their intellecutals, the Germans the Jews, the Americans the Blacks. As I've heard! Luckily we have not followed in the footsteps of the most horrofic leader of all time. Adolf Hitler, who if had died in 1930 some say would be Germany's greatest politician. Irony?? The World is a strange place, we mustn't ever become complacent and believe that the past couldn't be relived. The Russians and Americans both possessed enough weapons over the last decades to destroy all mankind and that is not sanity! Armies have become obsolete, and in the future survival is first and foremost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Liam Agreed. I saw the billowing smoke of 9/11 very clearly from my house. A day earlier I was able to see the Towers from the same spot. The world has become a strange place and we can't afford complacency. Now more than ever it's essential people the world over learn from the mistakes of the past. [ January 04, 2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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