A positive review of the gold demo

[dasreich]

I have played both sides each a few times with varying degrees of difficulty: and I am impressed. By far the biggest improvement is the AI. Instead of leaving their HQ and airfleets on the coast of Britain (where I can easily hit them) they left them a little inland, just outside of my range of sight (and fight). They wacked my navy as it engaged the royal navy and i lost close to 2000 mpps worth of units in one turn. Add to that, the French didnt let me destroy their lines like i used to. I have not encountered any of the bugs that have been complained about as of yet, and im glad. The gameplay feels smoother, and due to the better AI, it requires more strategy to win. (or as Allies, stay alive) I cant wait for the full 7 years, and considering how improved the gold demo is, its gonna be a blast.

Hubert, your a genius.

[dasreich]

I have played both sides each a few times with varying degrees of difficulty: and I am impressed. By far the biggest improvement is the AI. Instead of leaving their HQ and airfleets on the coast of Britain (where I can easily hit them) they left them a little inland, just outside of my range of sight (and fight). They wacked my navy as it engaged the royal navy and i lost close to 2000 mpps worth of units in one turn. Add to that, the French didnt let me destroy their lines like i used to. I have not encountered any of the bugs that have been complained about as of yet, and im glad. The gameplay feels smoother, and due to the better AI, it requires more strategy to win. (or as Allies, stay alive) I cant wait for the full 7 years, and considering how improved the gold demo is, its gonna be a blast.

Hubert, your a genius.

[Norse]

Hear, hear!

I have noticed improvements in the AI as well. As Italy, I used to send out the army in Libya into Egypt. Then I just placed my entire fleet near the Libyan/Greek coast. The UK would send the carrier and sometimes a battleship to hit the Italian army without paying attention to my fleet. Then I sent my fleet in and killed their naval units one by one. This doesn't happen anymore, UK forces you to go in head on. Very nice Hubert!

~Norse~

[Norse]

Hear, hear!

I have noticed improvements in the AI as well. As Italy, I used to send out the army in Libya into Egypt. Then I just placed my entire fleet near the Libyan/Greek coast. The UK would send the carrier and sometimes a battleship to hit the Italian army without paying attention to my fleet. Then I sent my fleet in and killed their naval units one by one. This doesn't happen anymore, UK forces you to go in head on. Very nice Hubert!

~Norse~

[Straha]

Did you guys notice whether playing the Allies is more challenging, too? Or is it even easier than before instead?

Straha

[Straha]

Did you guys notice whether playing the Allies is more challenging, too? Or is it even easier than before instead?

Straha

[dasreich]

Actually, playing Allies is more challenging too. After awhile in the BETA demo, Germany NEVER breached my lines in France unless I wanted them too. The last couple games, one on beginner and one on expert, They broke my lines on beginner before it ended, and took Paris in November on hard. Axis is more aggressive and smarter at being aggressive. They havent invaded UK yet, but the AI in general is much improved.

[dasreich]

Actually, playing Allies is more challenging too. After awhile in the BETA demo, Germany NEVER breached my lines in France unless I wanted them too. The last couple games, one on beginner and one on expert, They broke my lines on beginner before it ended, and took Paris in November on hard. Axis is more aggressive and smarter at being aggressive. They havent invaded UK yet, but the AI in general is much improved.

[Straha]

Good to hear that. I realize that it is more difficult to program the Axis, but I'd hate to have to play the Germans all the time to get a challenging game without reverting to those difficulty settings where the AI cheats.

Straha

[Straha]

Good to hear that. I realize that it is more difficult to program the Axis, but I'd hate to have to play the Germans all the time to get a challenging game without reverting to those difficulty settings where the AI cheats.

Straha

[Straha]

I'm still worried, though, about some things.

For example, what I do not understand is what was the rationale behind the decision to make it especially tough for the human player to achieve what the Germans did in 1940 in France in the same *timeframe*?

I can only see downsides to this. If it is tough for the human player, then it is impossible for the AI. This means that I will be still underchallenged when playing the Allies in 39 on the non-cheating settings.

That's always been a pet peeve of mine. I refuse to play the settings where the AI has an advantage in dice rolls. It usually does not make for a more challenging, but only a more frustrating game.

Well, thanks god that there is the option to give the Axis troops higher experience. I can live with that because I can rationalize it, and it's also not like the AI cheating on success probabilities.

Still, even if the Axis takes France eventually in 41, it will be too late for them. Keeping a strict timetable is of utmost importance for them.

Add to that the improved position of the Russians, and I fear that, playing the Allies, I will prematurely crush the Axis once Russia comes into play.

Of course, I know that probably most people will play the Germans in the 39 scenario anyway. But I'm not one of them. I like playing the Allies much more. (The reason is not political or something. I simply like to start out on the defensive, in a desperate situation, and then slowly, slowly get the upper hand).

I think that in the long run there should be some more options in the options menu like

- "Germany gets iron ore from (neutral) Sweden"

- "Vichy pays reparations"

Both would be historical, would make things tougher when playing the Allies, and even when playing the Axis, those options would motivate more historical strategies. E.g. I think that making Sweden tough to take is curing the symptom, but not the disease: Germany should have a *benefit* related reason for leaving Sweden alone, despite their valuable resources. And that reason should be that they get part of those MPPs without having to divert troops.

Straha

Edit: rereading my post I found it somehow sounds more negative than I intended it to. But, of course, I love the game! It's all just my anxiousness to make a stand for the Human vs. Axis AI perspective on things ...

[Straha]

I'm still worried, though, about some things.

For example, what I do not understand is what was the rationale behind the decision to make it especially tough for the human player to achieve what the Germans did in 1940 in France in the same *timeframe*?

I can only see downsides to this. If it is tough for the human player, then it is impossible for the AI. This means that I will be still underchallenged when playing the Allies in 39 on the non-cheating settings.

That's always been a pet peeve of mine. I refuse to play the settings where the AI has an advantage in dice rolls. It usually does not make for a more challenging, but only a more frustrating game.

Well, thanks god that there is the option to give the Axis troops higher experience. I can live with that because I can rationalize it, and it's also not like the AI cheating on success probabilities.

Still, even if the Axis takes France eventually in 41, it will be too late for them. Keeping a strict timetable is of utmost importance for them.

Add to that the improved position of the Russians, and I fear that, playing the Allies, I will prematurely crush the Axis once Russia comes into play.

Of course, I know that probably most people will play the Germans in the 39 scenario anyway. But I'm not one of them. I like playing the Allies much more. (The reason is not political or something. I simply like to start out on the defensive, in a desperate situation, and then slowly, slowly get the upper hand).

I think that in the long run there should be some more options in the options menu like

- "Germany gets iron ore from (neutral) Sweden"

- "Vichy pays reparations"

Both would be historical, would make things tougher when playing the Allies, and even when playing the Axis, those options would motivate more historical strategies. E.g. I think that making Sweden tough to take is curing the symptom, but not the disease: Germany should have a *benefit* related reason for leaving Sweden alone, despite their valuable resources. And that reason should be that they get part of those MPPs without having to divert troops.

Straha

Edit: rereading my post I found it somehow sounds more negative than I intended it to. But, of course, I love the game! It's all just my anxiousness to make a stand for the Human vs. Axis AI perspective on things ...

[Wolfpack]

Well, playing on +1 XP for the axis, I managed to have the AI exactly recreate the German invasion of France. Turn 1 he took out the low countries (Despite still using all his airpower on the unit on the border) Turn 2 I had reinforced the French line so I figured I could hold for a bit. 2 airstrikes on the Army in the Ardennes convinced me otherwise. One armored attack took it out and he then rolled his other two panzer armies and one infantry army through the gap and completely encircled the northern half of my line. Turn 3 he widened the gap by breaking the top Maginot defender and ran through to get to Paris after destroying the encircled units...Italy enters. Turn 4 was mop up. He took Paris and finished off the Maginot defenders. I was impressed by the encirclement he achieved on my line. Before, the AI would have sent one unit one hex into the hole and let me contain it there, but now it fully exploited the hole in my lines. From what I've seen of the gold demo so far, it's going to be a much tougher opponent than it was in the Beta.

[Wolfpack]

Well, playing on +1 XP for the axis, I managed to have the AI exactly recreate the German invasion of France. Turn 1 he took out the low countries (Despite still using all his airpower on the unit on the border) Turn 2 I had reinforced the French line so I figured I could hold for a bit. 2 airstrikes on the Army in the Ardennes convinced me otherwise. One armored attack took it out and he then rolled his other two panzer armies and one infantry army through the gap and completely encircled the northern half of my line. Turn 3 he widened the gap by breaking the top Maginot defender and ran through to get to Paris after destroying the encircled units...Italy enters. Turn 4 was mop up. He took Paris and finished off the Maginot defenders. I was impressed by the encirclement he achieved on my line. Before, the AI would have sent one unit one hex into the hole and let me contain it there, but now it fully exploited the hole in my lines. From what I've seen of the gold demo so far, it's going to be a much tougher opponent than it was in the Beta.

[Briggs]

Exactly how do the difficulty levels change the game play? I've never really experimented with them. Do they actually change how the computer plays, or do they just give the AI better dice rolls or something.

[Briggs]

Exactly how do the difficulty levels change the game play? I've never really experimented with them. Do they actually change how the computer plays, or do they just give the AI better dice rolls or something.

[Camicie Nere]

As usual, Straha makes good points. I do think it will be possible for a human player as the Axis to recreate the historical performance of 1940 with some skill, luck, and ingenuity. Keep in mind that in RL the Germans had almost everything go right for them. It would be very difficult to find another example from military history of two large forces with near parity of total strength where one pretty much annihilates the other within seven days. (In that by May 17th the victory in the West had become a foregone conclusion due to the huge breakthrough at Sedan.)

Anyhow, there is where the Scenario editor can come in handy - if you like, you can design an August '40 setup with Britain on the ropes, etc.

Which leads me to echo the praise of the "Gold" AI. I play as ever on standard difficulty with "fog" on - my respect for historical accuracy allows nothing else. Well, I have invaded England a good 40 times in the beta demo - never get tired of it.

Now, on the Gold, I find it significantly more difficult. Aside from gameplay factors, the US comes in earlier - enough so that they are usually able to ship some troops out to help the Anglos' desperate stand at Manchester. Also, those devious Bolsheviks have shown a tendency to jump on me almost without warning when it looks as if I will extirpate the Englishman.

In a go-around I just had, I took Manchester and the US forces that were about to unload immediately turned back and got the hell out of there. Sensibly so, in that I would have stomped them had they landed. Same turn, a veritable Russian steamroller came blasting into East Prussia and Poland. I must say that it would have an extremely interesting game had I not gotten that damned "demo over" message.

1. Great job, guys! You've improved on something that already kicked 800 varieties of tail.

2. Can it please be the second week of August already!

[Camicie Nere]

As usual, Straha makes good points. I do think it will be possible for a human player as the Axis to recreate the historical performance of 1940 with some skill, luck, and ingenuity. Keep in mind that in RL the Germans had almost everything go right for them. It would be very difficult to find another example from military history of two large forces with near parity of total strength where one pretty much annihilates the other within seven days. (In that by May 17th the victory in the West had become a foregone conclusion due to the huge breakthrough at Sedan.)

Anyhow, there is where the Scenario editor can come in handy - if you like, you can design an August '40 setup with Britain on the ropes, etc.

Which leads me to echo the praise of the "Gold" AI. I play as ever on standard difficulty with "fog" on - my respect for historical accuracy allows nothing else. Well, I have invaded England a good 40 times in the beta demo - never get tired of it.

Now, on the Gold, I find it significantly more difficult. Aside from gameplay factors, the US comes in earlier - enough so that they are usually able to ship some troops out to help the Anglos' desperate stand at Manchester. Also, those devious Bolsheviks have shown a tendency to jump on me almost without warning when it looks as if I will extirpate the Englishman.

In a go-around I just had, I took Manchester and the US forces that were about to unload immediately turned back and got the hell out of there. Sensibly so, in that I would have stomped them had they landed. Same turn, a veritable Russian steamroller came blasting into East Prussia and Poland. I must say that it would have an extremely interesting game had I not gotten that damned "demo over" message.

1. Great job, guys! You've improved on something that already kicked 800 varieties of tail.

2. Can it please be the second week of August already!

[Guest Mike]

FWIW I had hte Brit Med fleet behave in the normal "Beta" manner when approached by the Italian army - however the fleet actually crushed my Italian Navy in a couple of turns of fairly intense surface combat!!

Yes the AI does seem to be a bit more "intelligent" when attacking - as the Allies I had started to evacuate the Brits from France in May 1941 when the game ended and there were only 3 French units left surrounding Paris!!

And of course the Siberian hordes make Russia a much tougher prospect - but then that can equate to cutting off HUGE forces - I counted 7 corps, 4 armies and 2 armourd groups in a "pocket" including Kiev, Minsk and Smolensk in one game!!

And no - yuo don't want to invade the Baltic states unless you're ready for Barbarossa already!! ouch :eek:

[Guest Mike]

FWIW I had hte Brit Med fleet behave in the normal "Beta" manner when approached by the Italian army - however the fleet actually crushed my Italian Navy in a couple of turns of fairly intense surface combat!!

Yes the AI does seem to be a bit more "intelligent" when attacking - as the Allies I had started to evacuate the Brits from France in May 1941 when the game ended and there were only 3 French units left surrounding Paris!!

And of course the Siberian hordes make Russia a much tougher prospect - but then that can equate to cutting off HUGE forces - I counted 7 corps, 4 armies and 2 armourd groups in a "pocket" including Kiev, Minsk and Smolensk in one game!!

And no - yuo don't want to invade the Baltic states unless you're ready for Barbarossa already!! ouch :eek:

[DevilDog]

The thing that has me somewhat puzzled though is the AI seems to get bonuses. I've played both the Axis and Allies on the default settings, and lost my navy each time. At first, as I was playing as the Allies I just figured Hubert tweeked the Italians to have a more profficeint navy. But then, playing as the Axis my Italian navy was oblitterated in a heart beat. I think the AI is great now, but it's difficult to conquer France before late Summer or early Fall. I hope the full game play balance is OK, as the historic German timetable seems unreachable now. A quick fix might be to have both sides take their turn before the date changes.

[ July 20, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

[DevilDog]

The thing that has me somewhat puzzled though is the AI seems to get bonuses. I've played both the Axis and Allies on the default settings, and lost my navy each time. At first, as I was playing as the Allies I just figured Hubert tweeked the Italians to have a more profficeint navy. But then, playing as the Axis my Italian navy was oblitterated in a heart beat. I think the AI is great now, but it's difficult to conquer France before late Summer or early Fall. I hope the full game play balance is OK, as the historic German timetable seems unreachable now. A quick fix might be to have both sides take their turn before the date changes.

[ July 20, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

[waltero]

I really never messed around with the allies. Now I know I dont want to play them on a one player game.

First few games germany never got a foot hold in france?

I like the one turn transport to calais, provided you have a fleet in port.

I mean why would anyone want to change the outcome of the war for the allies?

unless you can save france.

and I figure if I can hold them back in the demo I should be able to do the same thing in the full game, and stop them from ever getting france!

I really hope this game is better on a two player than it is on a one player.

other wise in time it will just become anouther game, you beat it and why play it anymore?

the game is a fun one if you play the germans.

[waltero]

I really never messed around with the allies. Now I know I dont want to play them on a one player game.

First few games germany never got a foot hold in france?

I like the one turn transport to calais, provided you have a fleet in port.

I mean why would anyone want to change the outcome of the war for the allies?

unless you can save france.

and I figure if I can hold them back in the demo I should be able to do the same thing in the full game, and stop them from ever getting france!

I really hope this game is better on a two player than it is on a one player.

other wise in time it will just become anouther game, you beat it and why play it anymore?

the game is a fun one if you play the germans.

[DevilDog]

The other thing that I think got unbalanced is the reduction in striking power of the air fleets. It's a toss-up which had a greater impact in France, the German armored units or using the Stukas as flying on-the-spot artillery. The German airforce had a decisive effect on the battle for France (at least in '40 it did).

Now playing as the Germans, my air fleets are next to worthless. In one game on the green setting I bombed the Amsterdam unit with all three of my air fleets. Result? Two of my air fleets took damage and the Allied unit didn't take a scratch.

I think it's dangerous to make major play balance changes off the beta demo. Lots of the things people were complaining about could be changed by doing research; it was an incentive to do research actually. Maybe the German air fleets would be a lot more effective if they were at a higher tech level, but there is no time to do that at the start of the scenario. The France '40 scenario should already start with the German advantages over the Allies.

I think if it's too hard for the Germans to take out France and deal with the Allies in the early war years, when they historically had the advantage, it will make them a walk-over in the mid war years (there might not BE any late war years). Every play balance issue has to be weighed out over the length of the entire war. A small tweek in the begining may have a profound (and negative) impact on the later war.

The real trick is play balance and making a fun game. Because in real life WW 2 there were few times when opponents were evenly matched. The trick is making the game show all the advantages one side may have had, without making it such an automatic blow-out that it's no fun.

My 2 cents.