Weather in SC 2

[JerseyJohn]

Minotaur

The Winter reinforcement concept never occurred to me but after reading it a few times I got the point and think it's a good idea. It would also keep countries on the ropes from creating a full stregnth fromt line out of nowhere taking advantage of the winter standstill, yet it would be possible for them to create reserves in rear areas.

The added winter costs would make it preferable to set their MPPs aside and wait for Spring, if possible. Traditionally it's the good weather months when most mobilizations take place.

[Steve C]

The SC system of modeling weather: 2-week turns and in the spring and fall, 4-week turns in the winter is a simple solution, but flawed in one respect. Apparently nothing else changes, so a winter turn feels exactly like a turn in the summer.

Anyone else find it amusing that your ships are consequently reduced to 1/2 speed in spring/fall and 1/4 speed in the winter ?

[Desert Dave]

"There is really no such thing as bad weather, only different kinds of good weather."

-Lord Avebury

Well, but of course!

You need have weather variables in a potential SC2.

If for no other reason than it is THE most commonly apprehended phenomenon.

We ALWAYS talk about it (but can't personally do much about it, etc).

We walk around to & fro among it.

We stick a wetted finger amid it.

We spit in-to or at it.

We stare at it a lot and... Pascal-like, wonder and wonder.

So. Weather zones akin to what Minotaur has suggested are a right fine idea.

Rather than hex-borders though, I would rather see the entire hex shaded.

Rain = very light, unobtrusive blue

Mud = very light brown

Snow = very light white

Fog = very light grey

With penalties for movement, combat, supply and spotting.

**That ice-shellacking on the East Coast of USA of late?... ah, just another dire variation of what is actually... good weather! (... ie, if you are experiencing ANY weather, it means you are spryly alive... and kicking!) :cool:

[JerseyJohn]

Immer

Agreed, and in the NY/New Jersey area that changeable condition is truly abusive. Summer days in January and freezing days in May!

Just finished digging out from this little blizzard that hit us.

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

We ALWAYS talk about it (but can't personally do much about it, etc).

We walk around to & fro among it.

We stick a wetted finger amid it.

We stare at it a lot and... Pascal-like, wonder and wonder.

:cool:

Immer:

Great post, are you sure this is weather you're talking about?

[Minotaur]

Originally posted by Steve C:

Anyone else find it amusing that your ships are consequently reduced to 1/2 speed in spring/fall and 1/4 speed in the winter ?

As a matter of fact no... Always put it on bad supply... I'll take a better look in the future...

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

Rather than hex-borders though, I would rather see the entire hex shaded.

Another good way of seeing it...

*** Not too much snow for me, but a -40 degree outside, taking wind into account ...

[Edwin P.]

Excellent Posts,

Reminds me of an old game called Eastern Front where the hexes changed color to indicate the approach of winter (clear - mud - winter)and units movement capability and supply was degraded especially for units that moved.

I like the idea of giving each side the option of preparing for winter via research points which, in my mind, reflect the provision of better cold weather equipment to front line units rather than purely advances in technology. Now the Germans have the choice of buying more units or preparing existing armies for the winter weather.

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin,

It's odd how most computer games these days have gotten away from those changing seasonal colors. I really enjoyed that effect, especially in exploration games; seeing swaths of land colored for autumn while farther north it was still winter and later a similar effect as the white became autumn colors and the autumn turned to summer farther south with each season effecting gameplay differently.

I've finally come to see the changing seasons in SC, but I'd still prefer something less subtle, such as a solid white Russian Winter from Stalingrad to the Arctic!

Glad you brought this old thread back, there's plenty of good stuff in it.

[ April 29, 2003, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn

Thanks for creating this link in your other post, otherwise I would never have seen it.

Weather effects would make the conquest of Russia more interesting and offset the year long German advantages in air power and armored movement mentioned in other recent posts.

Even if Hubert only added this change to hexes in Russia /Finland / Norway / Sweden with just (Clear / Snow) it would be a great change and would not increase the complexity of the game.

I would also add a tech for cold weather gear as suggested by Minotaur to give the Germans a chance to avoid the errors they made in WWII.

Land Units in a winter hex should have their action points reduced - ie Germans /Italians /US /UK /French by 66% with Winter Tech 0, Russians by 33% with winter tech 2, and Swedes/Norwegians/Fins by 15% with winter tech 4. Winter Tech 5 would mean no movement penalty. Unlike other techs advances in this tech could not be stolen/affected from advances made by the other side.

Thus German armies could move 1 hex and Russian armies 2 hexes during winter months.

Air power should be affected by variable weather in a Winter Hex and limited to a reduction in operating and spotting ranges.

This would be the simplest method to implement from a programming point of view (ie If Hex Status = Winter and StormCondition = Storm then Range = 50% x AirRange, StormCondition = MajorStorm then Range = 0, StormCondition = Clear then Range = AirRange).

Thus in Winter Hex Zones you would have 3 storm conditions: Clear 40%, Storm 40%, MajorStorm 20%.

During a major winter storm air fleets could not fly.

During a normal winter storm their effective range would be reduced by half.

The question is - What was the real effect of winter weather on the use of air power in WWII on the Eastern Front?

[ April 29, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin,

In partial answer, during the winter of 1942 the Luftwaffe shifted a lot of crews from Russia to Sicily to hit Malta. When the weather began clearing they were sent back to Russia.

Glad the link came in useful. I was hoping more people would link their most relavent Topics to the FAQ thread as it makes things more organized. Otherwise good Threads end up lost.

[ April 29, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn

I never thought about linking interesting threads to the FAQ list, many thanks for the idea and for the great background information.

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin,

My pleasure.

[gorber]

Well, what can i say... HICOM had it...

Agree on many things in this thread and would like to add another factor to the weather conditions:

Hexes with rivers in Scandinavia and Russia should loose part or all of their entrenchment bonus factors in mid winter to simulate the effect of thick ice.

Troops (especially armour) should have their mobility reduced even more when trying to pass mountains in wintertime.

An icy North Atlantic could have limitations on the US supplies going Russias way (MPP loss if the MPP system is kept in SC2)

I loved the idea of having a tech tree for winter equipment!

/gorberdude

[JerseyJohn]

gorber

Hicom and COS both had it and something I liked about them was the effects also affected units moving at sea as well as invasions. Interceptions were much less likely in poor weather and invasions usually impossible in anything other than summer conditions.

There's no boubt that weather needs to be a real factor in SC before it can be taken more seriously.

[ April 30, 2003, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[santabear]

Count me in for the JJ/Minotaur ideas, too. I agree with JP Wagner: the turns in the game should be of a consistent duration and weather effects should be dealt with separately.

While month-long turns approximate winter conditions (in some latitudes), it's certainly not true that war in winter is exactly like in summer except that it takes longer. The effects on amphibious operations and FLYING weather would help the game a lot from my perspective.

I think there is also an excellent point in this thread about "SC Classic:" It will still be around for those who are looking for a less detailed, more 'playable' game. Many of the issues in this forum can only be effectively dealt with by adding some additional variables. And variables are good in a 'strategic' game, I think.

Liam: I chuckled when I read your post

...D-Day was put off! It was rare to get good weather in Europe.

You're absolutely right, but considering the awful weather they actually had it wasn't really worth the wait.