Everybody calm down ---> I CAN STOP ---> "Rambo Rome Invasion"

[jon_j_rambo]

Zapp --- It's very easy to stop the "Rambo Rome Invasion". I'm disappointed that you have gone & made a decision so quickly. You've rushed to judgement. Not only that, you're adding this Russian-Amphib-Rule to prevent the taking of Riga on the initial turn.

Also Zapp, your Med.Front.Mod doesn't prevent LC-Gambit.

There are a few issues here:

1) "Rambo Rome Invasion" can be stopped very easily, making it a gamble & costly for the Allies !!! My Classic move actually makes SC more gamey. I suggest checking w/ the Legend when it comes to Legendary moves.

2) What's this Pork-Barrell Russian invasion thing? You can still take Riga w/ Air units. You just don't like it when you're the Allies. This does not belong here. Why? Then I want a rule about the Odessa cut-off & other Army cut-offs.

3) If were going to have any House-Rules, then lets talk about SPAIN. This is the biggest joke of SC. Terif & his cloned players (Codename Condor to be exact) play this cookie cutter move to the "T". Add-up all the points & supply they get from plunder, Spain, Portugal, Gibralter, & N.Africa supply route, & all the way to Iraq. This is garbage. The Allies can't stop the SPAIN invasion. Terif & clones take it in 2-turns after the minors have joined.

4) What's this no invading Italy at all stuff until they have moved? That's garbage! I can't attack their fleet?

So what do you guys want the Allies to do? No supply ANYWHERE on the board for UK. You don't want LC-gambit, no Italy-gambit, so all you can do is sit on your ass in England building Air.

Terif --- You're the last person who should be banning moves. You don't like games that "end quick". Oh well, people can play how they want to play. You play your way & are obviously the Champ. How about the way you abused the UK invasion w/ regards to USA-readiness & cost me a game?

Terif & Zapp --- Leave the rules alone, you can't make people play your style. Cookie-Cutter Axis: experience HQ's & units, France, Norway, VF, Sweden, get the Axis minors, Spain, Iraq, & Greece by using the minors. Then you put all your money in Air-Tech. You both sit on your butt with UK building air. You never do anything in the Med.Front w/ UK/USA. It's AIR, AIR, AIR...then you guys preach about how everybody should play. You guys never build subs, rockets, or bombers, just to name a few. The whole Russian move is already scripted too.

I created "Rambo Rome Invasion"

I can stop "Rambo Rome Invasion"

Don't make House-Rules to suite your needs. That's why it's called a bid. Enjoy the new possible move. If Hubert believes it's bad, let him making another patch.

"It's a Legend thing" --- Rambo Hollywood 2003

[ June 02, 2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

This one I love!

What's this Pork-Barrell Russian invasion thing?

I've got to add this to my list.

[zappsweden]

i guess that means you would let me be allies next game. We will see if u can stop me from taking Rome

I challenge you Rambo on a no bid, standard scenario, no house rule game. I take Allies

Rambo, the house rule is only a proposal. I would like to know what other ppl think. If u read it carefully u see that u can attack Italy any way u want EXCEPT naval landings until they move.

That means you can DOW them, attack their navy and put up transport along their coast. You can make the landings AFTER Italy has reacted/moved.

About Russia. Russia is especially gamey since there is a limit on how many border units you can have before pissing them off. However, transports do nothing to the limit so you can still have 12-15 units at the border and have 7-10 transports along the coast.

[ June 03, 2003, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[zappsweden]

You can NOT stop the Rambo Rome invasion. I only need to defend French border for about 1-2 turns then pull back to a hedgehog defence around Paris. You cannot take Paris in 5 turns against top opposition despite 2 french armies being down in Italy. I can sell all my French navy and buy corps. I can ignore buying french HQ and just build corps.

[ June 03, 2003, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Zapp --- I must have read your post from the other thread wrong, I thought you made it clear, no "Rambo Rome Invasion" or you lose the game due to HouseRule breaking?

I accept your no bid, you can have the Allies.

Once again, I'll show the world how it's done.

"It's a Legend thing" --- Rambo-Hollywood as the Professional.

[zappsweden]

Ok, we can battle on Saturday or Sunday.

[GoldenPanda]

needless to say I'm also rather skeptical of Rambo's claim he can stop his own move. Still I'm interested to hear the outcome. If Rambo manages to stop Zappsweden I'd like to give it a try.

[Jim Boggs]

While I appreciate the listing of certain unique strategies, there are still some of us who play SC within an historical framework, ie; No Axis invasion of North America, No Allied declaration of war on neutral countries, etc.

So for my personal preferences I would state:

Just for the record, this thread here has had no impact whatsoever.

[zappsweden]

Rambo, the outcome of our game will still affect the future shape of SC. In a game where Italy always is taken and Axis counters it with some other offensive, the bids would be accordingly. That means if u accept someone being axis without a bid, then you are almost forced to do the Rome invasion (since Axis has this cookie-cutter recipe as you said).

The bid system was invented to balance the cookie-cutter recipe style that Axis could play. If Allies can defeat cookie tactic with a Rambo Rome invasion we would see low bids. That means, if u accept low bid and play as Allies and play ordinary (without taking Rome) then Axis would do his cookie-cutter plan with no problem. On the other hand, if u bid high and get Axis, Allies do the Rambo Rome and you are screwed too.

By proposing a house-rule against this Rome invasion and the Russia landing, I am not suporting the "traditional cookie-cutter Axis tactic". I have made my own scenario "UK defend Egypt 0.8" to enable more mediterranan play and make it tougher for Axis to follow a pre-game schedule. However, with Rome invasion my scenario is screwed so THAT really leads back to playing original scenario with the "Axis cookie-cutter style" vs "Allied do the LC gambit if Axis screws up" gameplay.

[ June 04, 2003, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[zappsweden]

I do not think that Axis Spain invasion could be prevented by a house-rule. If there was a house-rule against LANDINGS in Spain until they made ther first move, then we would see UK units sent to Spain just to delay the Spain invasion by 3-4 turns. Axis would ofcourse expect it, and destroy every Allied unit since there is only one port to escape from.

I have played games where USA defend Spain and it was not a pretty sight. Axis air blow their HQ up and then the Americans cannot get out in time and they are massacred as soon as Madrid falls.

[ June 04, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Spookster]

Zap,

I think what Rambo is trying to say is that IF you try the Rome Invasion, and if your Axis opponent suspects that you're trying the Rome Invasion, by the end of turn four, the Axis should have conquered, Denmark, Poland and the LC AND placed at least three airfleets in the hexes south of Munich (and a HQ, since the Germans have so much $), which are in spotting range and attacking range of the "back door" French Army in the Adriatic when this army moves in for the attack.

So on turn five, BLAM that French Adriatic Army is gone AND the allies have a bunch of transports floating around the Med while Paris is about to be crushed (since to pull off the Rome Invasion, you've pretty much pulled everything back from the Mag. Line to delay the fall of France.)

[zappsweden]

Spookster, it seems logical when u say it i.e trying to operate Axis air south to defend the adriatic sea. When I tested it, I found out something different.

Ok, say Axis tries to put air in southern Germany.

The problems are

1) Even if they wipe out the transport in the Adriatic sea, the Rome Invasion has good chances of suceeding anyway. Even if the invasion was 50-50, would that be good for the game? Suceeding would leave Allies with a huge advantage and failing would mean they lose the game.

2) Allied Egypt navy can spot the Axis air in southern Germany, so they could simply just head back home with that transport+do the invasion anyway and have good chances of suceeding.

3) Axis has to operate their air south in the critical moment when they should be battling on the French border.

4) All this is based on the assumption that Axis has taken Poland+LC+Denmark in 3 turns, so if anything screws up Germany will lose since they operate air south and misses the initiative.

5) Before this Rome thing, gaming had evolved a dead-line for Germany namely "Attack LC on turn 2 or Allies will LC gambit". Now, there would be another deadline like "operate air south on turn 4 or Allies can take Rome". This really spoils long game skills and leave every player depending on getting lucky rolls early on.

6) No player could win with Axis without luck because any good Allied player could gamble on a Rome Gambit and have 50-99% chance of success depending on the Axis counter air.

[ June 04, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[zappsweden]

When Rambo says he can stop the gambit he probably means he is capable of stopping it. I say, there should be a way to stop it entirely (like you can with LC gambit i.e just declare war on Belgium on turn 2 to prevent it).

So why do I want to stop Rome invasion in particular and not similar things in Spain and Greece. Well, because Italy and the mediterranean is a big part of the game and practically removing Italy from the game takes out alot of the stuff that was meant to be in the game.

This is not a semi-realistic game for no reason. If the players wanted no realism or history at all then we would play on random maps (not Europe) and random nations. Since we want some realism I think that Italy and the mediterranean seem to be too big parts of it to be excluded.

[ June 04, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Wachtmeister]

Yep - even just 2 air fleets around the Brenner Pass will likely reduce the "backdoor" French Army (NW of Rome) to around strength 2 or 3.

[zappsweden]

Another thing Spookster. Test what you are saying before you make up your ideas. There is no way, someone would pull back there forces to Paris if Axis air operates south and Axis cannot attack fully because of it. I said defend Maginot 1-2 turns but that takes for granted that Axis are making a full offensive with air and everything after LC have fallen. They could attack fully perhaps on turn 3 or 4, but not simultaneously operating air south.

If they attack fully in the west, Rome will fall and if they operate air south (on turn 4) French border will be pushed back slowly piece by piece (but Rome will probably fall anyway).

[ June 04, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Spookster]

Zap,

I would take offense to your rather smug, arrogant reply, but I cannot stop laughing. Play Rambo this weekend.

-Spookster

Originally posted by zappsweden:

Another thing Spookster. Test what you are saying before you make up your ideas. There is no way, someone would pull back there forces to Paris if Axis air operates south and Axis cannot attack fully because of it. I said defend Maginot 1-2 turns but that takes for granted that Axis are making a full offensive with air and everything after LC have fallen. They could attack fully perhaps on turn 3 or 4, but not simultaneously operating air south.

If they attack fully in the west, Rome will fall and if they operate air south (on turn 4) French border will be pushed back slowly piece by piece (but Rome will probably fall anyway).

[Hueristic]

Hmm a new rome invasion? is it a byproduce of the new patch? I remember when i started tweaking the italian gambit "OLD MAN" recommended trying for Rome and All i could achieve was a 47% success ratio and when failure would cost the game and a sealion early i scrapped the plan. But if it's a doable over 50% now i'd love to try to find a way out of it

Sound like a new challenge to me.

If someone wants to use it on me email me At Hueristic9@yahoo.com

Cya all, and good to see u diehards still battling it out

[GoldenPanda]

Originally posted by zappsweden:

...

If they attack fully in the west, Rome will fall and if they operate air south (on turn 4) French border will be pushed back slowly piece by piece (but Rome will probably fall anyway).

Exactly. The point is Rome doesn't HAVE TO BE DONE on a specific turn. The threat of Rome can be maintained until Italy enters the war. Axis can hardly spare 3 air + HQ to keep watch over Rome. If they do do this, might I suggest the allies take back Denmark and maybe even invade Norway..

[Codename Condor]

First of all, my way of conquer italy in turn 5 can NOT be stopped, i used this:

canadian army, 2 french armies, 1 airfleet, 1 bomber, 2 corps, 1 carrier, if i dont remember wrong. And the chances for sucess were very high, i would say about 80% in 1 turn, 100% in 2 turns, i cut off rome supply with 2 corps (thats what they are for) so if rome corps is killed in turn 1 but u have no more units to enter rome(80%) all u have to do is wait to next turn and move into Rome (100%).

As i posted in the other thread, shame on u, u cant fall lower than this.

During the following days of my first thread about the Rome gambit, as u call it, i was afraid of hearing, even suffering, that some player was using it, as no1 used it i understood no1 was even trying to develop it, but well, i see the threads are there for every1 to read and bad-wannabe-good players are allways eager to take advantage of flaws. The funny thing is, how couldnt u beat terif with this surprise???? thats beyond my understanding, terif is great, but if i was to do that move terif is dead before 1 year thast for sure. maybe u were so excited, kiddo-like , or maybe u r a low-average player trying to be big.

Next subject, the terif-clones, as u call me. I always admit i am using terif moves, geeze, ive been playing him about 20 games or so, He has developed the BEST tactics for taking minors, man, this guy has studied the game, they are PERFECT!, of course im using it, some of them, sometimes. I can recognize a good thing when i see one. U obviously cant. I was LMAO when i read about yer strategy with italy and the 11 airfleets over france, poor-average player move? yep, i think so.

SPAIN

YEah, i hate that spain is so easyly conquered, i already have posted about it sometimes. Spain would never fall like this, unrealistic. But im waiting for SC2, some very good ideas have been exposed in this forum about it and may hubert listen to them.

Funny thing u claim about 'all the way the north africa supply route to iraq', the way u play: all-or-nothing with the LC gambit, this has nothing to do with it, u r always losing games in the very first year,( the longer the game the more chances see u r a poor-average-player? ), as i told u once, terif was right i told u, i tried once to beat terif with the 1-turn-LC gambit to no avail.

Well, no more to say. I laughed at yer posts, pricky but very funny, now i laugh at yer game. SHAME.