Have I got this right?

[Bruce70]

If you buy an L0 air fleet (cost 400MPP) then wait until you get to L5 then reinforce it to 15 (cost 100MPP) you get the unit for a total of 500MPP. But if you wait until you get to L5 then buy it, it costs you 600MPP. (Also the first way you get to use it while you wait for L5).

If you do the same thing at ind tech L5 then it costs you 250MPP (200+50) the first way and 400MPP the second way.

Is this the case or am I way off? And if it is right does something need to be done about it? It certainly seems counterintuitive to me.

[sogard]

Any time I build Air Fleets and use them, they don't remain at full strength for long so that ought to be factored into your analysis.

[ September 27, 2002, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: sogard ]

[Hubert Cater]

I didn't take a look at the actual formulas but running a quick test with a sample campaign I got the following numbers:

L0 Jets at 10 -> reinforce to 15 Costs 400 + 150 = 550

L5 Jets at 10 Costs 600

Now if you are at Ind. Tech Level 5:

L0 Jets at 10 -> reinforce to 15 Costs 400 + 100 = 500

L5 Jets at 10 Costs 400

Hubert

[Bruce70]

Ahh do you pay 10% more for replacements for each increase in tech level. I think you said that in another post, but I didn't quite realise what you were saying.

But...

Don't L0 air fleets at tech L5 cost 200 MPPs? just a typo? And I am not sure how you get a replacement cost of 100 at L5.

How do you feel (Hubert and others) about it being cheaper to buy units at low tech level and "upgrade them" than it is to buy them at the higher tech level?

I am not trying to make a big issue of this ('cos its not) but it does seem like an inconsistency to me.

[pzgndr]

OK, from a quick test:

L0 Jets cost 40 MPPS per factor to build, 20/factor to reinforce. At L1 the reinforcement cost does increase 10% to 22/factor; however, the build cost remains at 40/factor. It only looks like a 10% increase, but you're buying 11 factors instead of 10.

So, shouldn't the 10% increase per factor also be applied to the build costs?

[Hubert Cater]

Don't L0 air fleets at tech L5 cost 200 MPPs? just a typo? And I am not sure how you get a replacement cost of 100 at L5.

I wasn't sure what I wrote after looking at it again either , I think what I was saying is that if I had Airfleets that were purchased when I was at L0 and now I am at level 5 and I want to go from strength 10 to 15, the cost is 100, but you are right purchasing L5 jets gets me new jets at strength 15 for 600.

How do you feel (Hubert and others) about it being cheaper to buy units at low tech level and "upgrade them" than it is to buy them at the higher tech level?

I don't know, the cost of retrofitting is cheaper than wholesale new purchases, I know that's stretching it a bit considering we are talking about whole new aircraft. OK that's a good point, not quite sure how to work around that one though.

Hubert

[Hubert Cater]

L0 Jets cost 40 MPPS per factor to build, 20/factor to reinforce. At L1 the reinforcement cost does increase 10% to 22/factor; however, the build cost remains at 40/factor. It only looks like a 10% increase, but you're buying 11 factors instead of 10.

So, shouldn't the 10% increase per factor also be applied to the build costs?

Oops you're right, stop finding these! OK so it should be more like this:

L0 Jets = 40 MPP per factor

L1 Jets = 44 MPP per factor

L2 Jets = 48 MPP per factor

etc.

So that changes the purchase cost of L1 Jets from 440 to 484, and L5 jets will change in cost from 600 to 900 MPP!! Wow that's a big difference, this actually alone might change some of the strategies for tech investments on it's own. This is something to think about.

Hubert

[Brian Rock]

This appears like it might make an impact on a range of tech strategies. For example, would this be a factor for the US to prefer lots of lower cost armored units as opposed to fewer high quality units? If so, we'd actually be seeing a rough analog to the decision to stick with the Sherman...

Of course this could be completely wrong. Anybody with lots of experience of the full game care to comment from an informed position?

[Bruce70]

The only solution I can think of is to introduce a cost for upgrading units, but that is surely a job for SC2.

[pzgndr]

The upgrade cost should appear over time as you reinforce older units. It's not like you changeout every PzIII for a PzV all at once for an entire tank group, so I don't see a need for unit upgrade like we have in PG. And it's probably too much of a pain to even think about keeping older techs in play as an option for players to choose, like buying more PzIIIs because they're more affordable rather than the latest and greatest PzVs. Economic concerns may well drive player's decisions to continue research in certain areas or not, like a US decision to stick with cheaper tanks.

I will question again why we really need the unit strength to increase with tech advances. That seems like an unnecessary double-benefit, and makes the purchase cost excessive if we do see the 10% per-factor increase added in, as Hubert noticed. A strength cap of 10 would also limit the overwhelming power of some of these advanced techs, so it's something to think about. We would still have relative tech superiority, plus other experience bonuses for advanced units, so keeping strength capped at 10 should be reasonable.