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The Maus Tank, Germany's RR Guns and Other Discussions.


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Glad you enjoyed that entry about Hitler, it just sort of happened! Got a kick out of that stuff about his mysticism and astrology -- and when things went wrong it was the astrologer's fault, of course, so they all ended up in Auschwitz. Guess that's what comes from reading the wrong tea leaves. smile.gif

Shaka, Santabear, Panzer and Konstantin

The Russian discussion has become incredibly encompassing. It's one of those things which, as you read you make a mental note then find further down the page that someone else says exactly the next thing you were going to write, which is excellent.

The only thing I can still say is I never meant to imply Moscow was ever left undefended, of course it wasn't. But it would have fallen easily to von Bock's army as it was originally constructed. While Hitler was doing that he was also moving crucial units south from von Leeb's Army Group North, probably costing the capture of Leningrad at the same time.


I can't see starting another thread on Barbarossa, the bunch of us have already said most of what we wanted to say right here, but I'm taking your advice with something similar that I think we'll have a lot of fun picking over.

[ April 25, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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We are saying the same thing, just differently.

If AG South had been able to advance on its own, then the PZ Group would not have been diverted.

Because the Russians were able to delay AG South (regardless of why), to continue the advance it required more German forces.

Either way, the Russian forces in opposition to AG South had to be eliminated.

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Of course they had to be eliminated and Kiev had to be taken as well. But Guderian should have remained with Army Group Center till it had taken Moscow, which was a near certainty even in the minds of the Soviets.

Likewise, von Leeb should also have been left with his panzers till he'd either captured Leningrad or had it completely cut off from the rest of Russia, then they could have been transferred south. This makes all the more sense considering the Russian weather patterns; not surprisingly, the north freezes first.

The Russians caught in the Kiev Pocket were poorly organized, virtually out of supplies demoralized and not an offensive threat. They should not have been the immediate priority.

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