Z-League NEWS: The MyLeague Challenge option now enabled.

[zappsweden]

Top-5 players are now able to challenge any higher ranked player. The higher ranked has 10 days to complete the challenge else BOTH players get a loss on their record.

A player can only make one challenge each 7-days at most.

All these things work automaticly and is part of the myleage.com ruleset options.

(NOTE: Since the original post the "day to complete challenge" was increased. It is now 24-days. A player can now make one challenge each 14-days.)

[ September 23, 2003, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Terif]

You obviously abuse the fact that you are the ladder admin.

I told you earlier in detail that I want to play also some other players and not only against you !!

We played during the last 60 days 19 games, in average one every 3 days (and lots of them took the 3 days to complete..). I was mainly busy playing with you. I played over 50 games against you, against nobody else I played so much.

When I play against you, I cant play against somebody else, so easy it is, therefore I told you we can play, but not every day (one game every 1-2 weeks is ok) and I need a break between our games.

Especially since our games are not much fun any more: only exactly the same old strategy in order to win against me at all cost. If you make any minor mistake or I try a new strategy you surrender and want to start a new game immediately, thats really annoying.

I am very disappointed from your behaviour

You have the chance to deactivate the challenge system. I told you I have time to play again against you after October 1 at the usual times.

But during the 11 days until then I have the chance to play some other players cause I can play at US times.

And I want to use this opportunity !!

So please deactivate the challenge system and the challenge against me, or I will take my consequences.

[zappsweden]

I changed the "days to complete formal challenge" and "time between challenge from the same person" to 14 days both. I think that is fair.

I do not want a system where everybody challenges the champion, putting to much strain in him. However, I think the system is worth trying at leist.

Who says staying on top should be easy?

[Terif]

Sorry, but I dont think its worth to try the challenge system. Its not useful for SC. SC is too time consuming. I dont accept to be forced to play a game when I dont have time for it and it can be very difficult to find a time when to play the challenge game. Additionally the challenge system can be too easily abused.

You know the way SC players find their opponents. Its incompatible with the challenge system. As we both agreed earlier: The my-league rules are made for another type of game (Chess, Backgammon, Tetris...etc) with much more players. The challenge system is another thing that doesnt fit to SC.

Therefore please deactivate the challenge system.

[Curry]

Several observations

1. I understand wanting a challenge system. There are postive aspects of such a system. However, because of the length of a SC game would not some serious changes need to be made. For example - a player can only make one challenge every 30 - 45 days. And the higher ranked player should have like 90 to 120 days to complete the challenge.

2. Why limit it for the top five players? Sounds like discrimination to me... (Hehehe )Why cannot any player give a challenge? It does not sound fair to those of us on the bottom (at least in my hunmble view) Because of this aspect IMHO it does seem that you brought in the challenge system just to force Terif to play you more often.

3. Does not the league vote on something like this. I believe I saw in the past the players voted on several rule changes. Should not the players vote on a challenge system?

Just my own observations.... But this all makes life in the SC world more interesting.

[zappsweden]

Curry,

The reason why we voted the last time was because it was about a house rule. A house rule changes the most intimate parts of SC, namely the game behaviour.

If the challenge system included every ranked player, logically the champion could be flooded with challenges. It would be impossible for anyone to play at such a high rate.

Remember, you can only challenge someone higher than you. If u are ranked 10-20 or lower why do you need a challenge system? There are many players abover. You can play anyone of them if u wanna advance the ladder rankings.

When you get to the top-5 spots you have a very limited number of players to play if you want to rise in the rankings.

Top-10 players already have stricter rules than rest of player. Top-10 players must play one game each 24-days to avoid losing 5 places in ranking.

Top-5 players now have even stricter rules. They can be challenged by any other top-5 player (actually the number 5 guy will not be challenged so it is rather a top-4 strictness)

[ September 19, 2003, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Terif]

Hi Curry,

1. Playing SC should make fun and should not be a duty

2. I dont know any player who avoided a game in order to not bring his rank in danger. If you want a game with someone, simply send an e-mail (or post in the forum, but this can be overlooked...) and you can make an appointment with any active player (including myself ).

3. You dont need the challenge system to set up a game. The only use of the challenge system is to harass a higher ranked player and bring him down:

The lower ranked player simply needs to avoid playing the challenge game, or doesnt report the loss, then the higher ranked player looses ranks and he cant do anything against it...

[Terif]

Zapp:

Seems you have not deactivated the challenge system...

I am not accepting to be forced to a game. I play SC because it is fun. I never avoided a game that could bring my rank in danger (I even lost top position twice until the next game). We both played enough games and will (hopefully) play a lot more, so no need for you to use the challenge system to force me.

Consequence:

Deactivate the challenge system, I will not play a challenge game against you. If it is not possible to remove the challenge against me, then post a loss (in this case you have a bonus for our next games and dont need to report your next loss). I play by free will, but not if someone wants to force me to, I really hate such things and will react very aggressively...

Until the challenge system is deactivated I will not play a game against you any more. If you deactivate it (and I dont get penalized by your challenge) then we can play like normal our games at the usual times after October 1.

[Curry]

Terif: I believe you are correct. There really is not a need for such a system. But if there is one the time spreads must be so great as it would void any practical considerations to have a challenge system in the first place.

Zapp: You made some good points on why only the top players would be invovled and I would conceed that to you. However, I would disagree with you on the voting. This would change the league in a major way and I would think the players should get a vote on such a change in the same way they would vote for a rule change.

[jon_j_rambo]

Zapp --- I think you're being a little rough with this one, because the rule is targeting Terif. We haven't had any problems with "Draft Dodgers". Terif gives everybody fair shakes for the Crown. Be thankful that Terif plays alot of games in general. He sets appointments to play, has never had any fishy disconnects, & backs his play on the battlefield. There's no way you can corner Terif on this one. He has played you & he will play you.

Terif has been clear that he is not dodging you & the number of games played proves it. Zapp, I understand why you get frustrated, is because you want to play the Champ. You get online, & the Champ is playing some unranked dude...obviously he's fine tuning his game, working on gambits, & likes to headcrack a rookie every now & then.

SC takes a longggg time to properly play without pyscho game shortening risky moves. I've given up (via playing stupid) numerous times against you & Terif because of time. I say screw it, try something risky (dumb), & just give up to go play golf. I do believe Terif is geniune when it comes to "I just like to play for fun" against some rookies instead of you. If Terif plays you, he must play his A-game & can't afford "gamey moves". Take that as a compliment.

Out of respect for the League & for Terif, I gave him immediate rematches the two times I had the Crown for all the games where I was dicking around, gambling, & giving up.

Also remember the SC-CUP 2003 is taking place & will take up Terif's time, scheduling games, etc. Zapp, go beat on those guys in your division, & before you know it, you might just be playing for the Z-League Crown & SC-CUP at the same time !!!

If there ever is a problem with "Draft Dodging", we won't fix it with rules anyhow. Just fix it with smack, by calling somebody out on the carpet (Forum) & let the world be your jury.

Rambo votes no to this rule.

[zappsweden]

I am TESTING this rule to see how it work out in practice. I will not instantly abandon it. Why does everyone think that this is an anti-Terif rule? I mean, anyone can challenge the #2 or #3 guy too. Putting equvivalency between Champ and Terif is true in this case, but not always. When someone becomes Champ, he can be challenged.

I have never said we should vote about everything in the league. I decided that we vote on GAME MECHANIS i.e issues that force ppl to play different rules or setup than the original game and scenarios. There will be no voting in this case. Setting the ruleset options is the administrators task. Changing the game mechanics is everyones decision, ok?.

The changes with the challenge system is that the lower ranked calls the higher ranked out instead of the higher ranked picking his opponents. More honour in a Challenge system.

If the system turns out bad, I will abandon it. Simple.

[Terif]

If the system turns out bad, I will abandon it. Simple.

It turns out bad, have a look at the "discussion", so abandon it.

Why does everyone think that this is an anti-Terif rule?

You activated it (+challenged me) an hour after you asked me to play a game where I told you I first want to play some other people cause we had our last game the day before. I even gave you a time when we can play again. But you obviously were not willing to wait. So tell me this challenge system is not against me...

As I said I dont play a challenge game against you. Until you deactivate the system I will NOT play any game against you. You have time to deactivate it until the penalty resulting from the not played challenge game takes place (Enough time to "test" it...).

If it happens that I get penalized by the system because of your challenge system, then you can be sure I will not play you ever again, contact the staff of My-League and the other consequences I am pretty sure you can imaginate. You know what I am talking about...

[zappsweden]

You activated it (+challenged me) an hour after you asked me to play a game where I told you I first want to play some other people cause we had our last game the day before. [/QB]

FACTS:

I played you on 15/9 (check myleague.com results)

Challenge system started on 19/9

You played me the day before?

No u played me 4 days before.

[Terif]

You are right, there are 4 days between our game and the challenge. Our last game was at Monday sept 15.

But you asked me to play against you at sept 16. There I explained you that I want to play others first and said you that we can play again after October 1.

See posts:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=006348;p=1

During the following days you insisted to play with me, the last time at Friday sept 19:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=006401

Shortly after this discussion you activated the challenge system and challenged me. Game had to be completed within 10 days. I clearly explained you earlier that I will play you again in 12 days....

It is really annoying and bad style how you want to force me to play with you, we really played enough games and if you remove the challenge system + the challenge we surely will play enough more...

[zappsweden]

I do not agree to the numbers Terif, they are missleading.

I played you 19 games in the last 60 days you said. However, you ought to mention that of those 19 games, 16 of them were played before 22/8 i.e only 3 games have been played between us the last month. You have played a total of 28 games the latest month according to Z-League statistics. Three of them were against me, so it is not like I am eating your time is it?

Also, you said many of them lasted 3 days. No, not in my memory they did not. In some of them, I gave up before barbarossa roughly 2-4 hours into the game. In MOST of them i gave up somewhere in 1942 i.e just a few turns after Barbarossa began (roughly 7-9 hour games). Just rarely, they were marathons going to 1944 or further i.e 20+ hour games.

It also depends on what you mean with 3-days. Some of my games last several days only because circumstance made it possible only to play 2-4 hours each time.

You only tell the numbers that suit your cause. For example, the top-3 players in Z-League have played more than all the other ranked player combined (186 vs 169) so naturally you play more against those player.

Another thing that you never mention is that myleague.com are ladder style leagues and they encourage (in the rule section) players to play against similar ranked players. In fact, top-10 players are encouraged to play the opponent directly under them, the champion is encouraged to play the number 2 as often as possible PLUS that they enourage player to prioritise higher ranked players when many players wanna face them.

I have created World Championship Ladder and adminstrated it myself. I have started Z-League and administered it myself. Now I make ONE rule change without offering a vote about it and you go shouting out loud that you wont accept it. You put an ultimatum that you will contact myleague.com staff also. This contradict the fact that you often say to be playing for fun. How can someone be so deadly serious if it is just for fun???

[ September 24, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Terif]

I dont continue discussing minor details with you. Deactivate the Challenge system or I take the consequences.

[Terif]

I explained you detailed why I wont play you immediately again and that we could play after October 1. Before this date I have simply other things to do than playing with you.

You couldnt wait these few days, you started the challenge system and tried to force me to play in exactly the time frame where I explained I can not play against you.

As I said before:

I hate behaviour like this. And I react very aggressively at such behaviour.

[Curry]

I most likely should stay out of this. But since I work in Human Resources and am often drawn into conflict management I just cant help myself from commenting.

Zapp – Hear Rambo’s view, he is right you are being rough on this issue or as we say in the states over the top on this one. It is clear in my view as an outsider of the conflict that you brought this challenge system into play to get Terif to play you more. You will not bring it up to a vote because, simply, you know you would lose. So you will use the power as the administrator of the Z-league to force your way. This is only causing Terif to become more adamant in his refusal to play and to bring about “consequences” if it happens. Both of you are only getting more and more entrenched in your positions and it appears neither is willing to back down at this point. If it keeps heading in the direction it is going the consequences will only be negative for you both of you and for the small hobby and community we have here.

If this was a business I would try to have both persons save face and both persons get out of their entrenched positions before the negative consequences.

So here is how we can do this - We have a smack down wrestling match! Rambo is the smack down official in the center of the ring and Zapp and Terif face each other off in a wrestle-mania wrestling match. Now that would be fun.

But since that wont happen. I would suggest Zapp just back off. BUT not admitting he was wrong and certainly not admitting his idea for a challenge is not a worthy one and worthy of all the players in the league considering. BUT back off FOR THE GOOD OF THE HOBBY AND THE COMMUNITY. And Terif out of respect of Zapp’s action of doing so and for the betterment of the hobby and for peace between the two of you give you an immediate match at the earliest availability of both of you.

I and many others here in this community would hate to see you two go into a feud fight that will only hurt this forum, this community and most importantly your relationship. PEACE!

[ September 20, 2003, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Curry ]

[Terif]

Curry:

I fully agree with you. At the moment it is an emotional thing. With some distance and after some time I am pretty sure this will have a total different look.

The challenge system isolated can be discussed if it is useful or not (My opinion is: not useful, playing SC should be fun and not a duty).

But it was the combination of things: during the whole week I had to discuss with Zapp why not (immediately) and when I would play with him. I said him several times that we can play after October 1 and after some days this discussion really annoyed me. The challenge system was only the last link in a chain.

Perhaps this is not very objective any more and my reactions a bit exaggerated, but thats how I feel...

As I said in my other posts: if the challenge system is removed and the challenge itself(without penalty), then I have no problem to return to normal relations and play like usual after October 1.

I can start a game with Zapp at October 2 or one of the following days. Since then I have my normal time schedule back. I am pretty sure we find a fitting time to make an appointment cause usually we both should have time around 10 am-3/4pm european time.

[ September 20, 2003, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Codename Condor]

When i first heard about a SC league in Casses i thought WOW, crazy!, SC is too much time demanding for such a ladder. Casses is suitable for few time demanding games such as pool, chess...But the fact is that its working so far. If a challenge system is introduced i doubt it will be that way. The fact is that a Challenge system is not necessary, its not fun, it creates fuss and would lead to kill the ladder. Im sure there are players out there that dont check their email frecuently (i take a look at it every year or so...) let the challenge be pointed out in the forum also after a while it will be laughable: X challenges Terif for n+1 time, god, look at this guy record or in the previous ladder, he was playing gams always above 2 digits numbers, playing every newbie and ALSO every top player even some times in a row, u CANT force this guy to play a game, just post in forum and u will have him playing, but u have to take into account after 3 games with him in 3 days try to find some1 else to play, if instead u just challenge him he will get upset, logical.

[Terif]

Zapp:

I had a night to sleep over this thing and calm down. Curry is right: our dispute can damage the community and our common hobby severly.

I have a PEACE OFFER for you:

How about making an arrangement: when we finished a game, after a time period of 10 days each of us has the right to challenge the other one via the Battlefront forum (= we make an appointment for the next available time slot). If we see the other one searching for a game (ICQ or opponent finder forum) we can ask for a game and play immediately.

The game between us has priority over all other games except when we are already in a game or have a fixed appointment with another player. In this case we make an appointment for the next available time slot.

From my point of view, this arrangement would have advantages for both sides:

- You want to play competition and as you pointed out earlier, dont want to search for me all the time to play a game with me. With this arrangement you can be sure you will get a game every 10 days if you want to and real life doesnt interfere (sometimes one of us has holidays or too much work to do ).

- it is also good for competition in my opinion: if you can repeat turns or restart games when something goes wrong, without any consequences, then it is no real competition. After enough tries everyone will win someday simply by chance.

With a 10 day break between the games, it has a meaning if you win or loose a game. You cant play immediately again, so it is really a success if you win. If you win within a limited amount of games then it is a real achievement.

- for myself the main problems are:

I want to play many different players. During the 10 days I have the opportunity to do so.

And I want a challenging and interesting game. With the 10 day break, you have an incentive to give me a real fight and I am sure you will think twice if it is really necessary to surrender. If you decide to surrender, this will be ok and I know you gave your best.

You are a very good player and with a bit perseverance I am pretty sure you will beat me again some day (hopefully in the far, far future ).

[Terif]

Waiting for a reply....

[DalmatiaPartisan]

:confused:

[ September 23, 2003, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: DalmatiaPartisan ]

[DalmatiaPartisan]

Well this made me mad!!!!!!!

Zapp lost control a bit(Joy division song) and not to the nearest passer by(LOL)-only to Terif. Its a bit too much to force someone-player(Terif) to have another game, and another... just because he wants to have higher rank if he wins!

I dont like challenge system...

Anyway if challenge system is activated it should be working like this:

- player can challenge only players ranked above(of course) but only 10 places higher. Like someone ranked 16(me) cannot challenge nr.2, but can nr.6...

Anyway if Zapp thinks that his quality is enormous and only top5 players are good enough to compete against him You can organise SIx nations cup(as in rugby)-hehe!

Take it easy-this is FUN game-if You want true war go to military academy! Of course we all like to compete and challenge is highest to play against better(positioned) players. But dont regret to play against others-they can learn from YOu and one day it ll be pleasure and challenge to play against them.I d like our small community to have hundreds of members we can compete with

[ September 23, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: DalmatiaPartisan ]

[zappsweden]

My view:

summary: I make one rule change resulting in arguments, smack talk, threats, ultimatums, jumping to conclusions and even peace offering.

I do not like that some ppl say that just because a system can be missused it will. I mean, what moron would think "Hey, with this new system I can join Z-League, work my way to the top and fake challenge some of the top player giving them (and me) a loss. Hehe, that is worth spending my spare time on". Another thing I might just add is, how could anyone missuse the challenge system time after time and not make it obvious. The forum would expose, hunt down and questioning such person. Anyone saying that the system will be missused, is in fact misstrusting my capability as an administrator to monitor and control it. If someone calls me a cheater and think I will use my administrator status to enable it, Say it now or stop making statements indicating stuff like "might happen" or "can happen".

IMPORTANT:

Since challenges cannot be cancelled, if u make a challenge you are expected to be able to play it. No one can make a challenge, going on vacation, stop reading forum and being total unavailable until the challenge runs out. Someone missusing it like that will certainly be punished. Did anyone expect that ppl will make challenges and then go out hide in the woods?

It reminds me of something Jerry Seinfeld said

-Come on, HURRY, I put it on full flow (water tap on airport)

-But we are business men, we will miss the plane.

-I do not care, WAAATER WAAATER!

Accusing someone without the benfit of the doubt pisses ME off. Some ppl just said what they though, however IF U MAKE AN ACCUSATION YOU GOTTA BE ABLE TO BACK IT UP, not just speculating.

Example of smack talk:

Dalmatian wrote:

"Anyway if Zapp thinks that his quality is enormous and only top5 players are good enough to compete against him You can organise SIx nations cup(as in rugby)-hehe!"

Dalmatia. did I not played you 3-4 games before?

In fact, I remember playing you at leist once the last 2 weeks. You are not a top-10 player, but I played you. So, what conclusion did you make again???

The statement you did was an excellent example of how someone can talk SMACK!

Hidden smack in the sentence:

Terif wrote:

"if you can repeat turns or restart games when something goes wrong, without any consequences, then it is no real competition."

Have I EVER taken back any move???

In fact, I remember in one of our games I made a miss-click and put myself in a dreadful position. You then offered me to take back my move but I declined and told you it is against my principles (I think I said principles but I am not sure). Yet, you just throw something like that into the sentence to score cheap points with the public, get the opinion on your side or whatever.

Example of jumping to conclusion:

Dalmatian wrote:

"Anyway if challenge system is activated it should be working like this:

- player can challenge only players ranked above(of course) but only 10 places higher. Like someone ranked 16(me) cannot challenge nr.2, but can nr.6..."

By reading that, it seems you think I just made this rule up. I did not. Read the earlier post, IT IS IN THE MYLEAGUE RULESET. I cannot change the challenge system, I can activate/deactivate it. It is automatic and integrated into the myleague functionality.

Terif, u offered me to abandon the challenge system and instead get a Taylor made internal challenge system Zapp vs Terif. You aint listening to what I have said. This is not a personal Zapp & Terif issue even though you try turning it to one (since it adds to your credability, I know u are smart but I aint dumb either). I try to look at it as roles. Your current role is the champions, mine is one of the top challengers. It does not has to be "either Zapp made this rule to hunt Terif or not". There are many factors. I have said it before pretty clear. I play to WIN. This is not a charity league. I would not want any special rules, favours or charity. If I would accept a "peace offer" like the one you made, it would only make me look like a crying baby that eventually got his will through. Why do you (Terif) make this to something bigger than it really is?

I expect every single person who is in the Z-League to follow the Z-League rules.

[ September 23, 2003, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]