Curious about Historical Outcomes

[Yogi]

This is a message of curiosity not complaint about the game. I generally like to play from the beginning and have noted that regardless of the side I take, the game has never depicted "Historical Results" even if you attempt to follow Historical strategy. Recently for the first time I pulled up the D-Day scenario start and it was truly glaring how different that June 1944 looked from any June 1944 I have seen in playing SC from the beginning.

My question is, have any of you seen a game that displayed roughly historical battle results either against the AI or an opponent.

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

I have never once ever seen any wargame computer or non computer ever end up looking just like the way it did in history.

But that's the reason we play these games. To see all the other outcomes.

To see the way it actually played out, well you have to read a book.

[ January 01, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Les the Sarge 9-1b ]

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Well back in the beta demo games i tried to recreate history and it worked for the most part. But I shall try to accomplish that in the 1939 scenario.

CvM

[Hueristic]

Those that ignore the Lessons of history are Destined to repeat them.

But what about us poor bastards that just can't remeber them?

[Friedrich_der_2]

Please allow me to contribute some sentences to this forum. I just playes a very nice game against Comrade Trapp. He was Axis and I Allies and we started in 1939 with standard settings.

The outcome is that he gave up at the end of 1940 without taking Lowlands or France. After Poland he took no other country.

This was my first game as Allies I played never again a game as Allies against a human opponent or the Ai. But my strategy was easy. Just use what I have to defend France AND the Lowlands against the German agression

First I sunk his subs in the north Atlantic. Than I moved my ships to the North Sea to sunk the three German ships there. At the same time I sunk 4 of the 5 Italian ships in the Mediterranean Sea and the last ship was damaged.

So I was the king of the water.

At the beginning of the war I moved all my units to France except one Chorps in London. Two units were efending Marseille and with a little bit and the better supply they took Milan.

One of my Polish armies took Praque before Poland fall. So it took 4 or 5 rounds until Poland fell. So I had some time to buy a French and an English HQ and to move it to France to cover the units. The attack on the Lowlands came late and I could defend the Lowlands. My two English air fleets, the france air flets and one carrier with HQ backup caused a lots of losses to the German air fleets. The armies at the maginaot line and two French armies caused also some losses at the Germans.

So after loosing three ground units, the entire German flets, most of the Italian ships, a Italian city, one Italian unit at the end of 1940 the Axis gave up and France was not fallen.

There have been not much options left for the Germans because English ships covered the Scandinavian staates, England and the Mediterranean Sea. Offhore bombing caused also some losses at German troops.

I know I have had much luck to win against an experienced player like Comrade Trapp but the strategy could work if you avoid my mistakes. And the Germans cannot use their secret saenger-bredt antipodal bomber to destroy New York:

Sven

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by Sven1969:

And the Germans cannot use their secret saenger-bredt antipodal bomber to destroy New York:

LMFAO

[Yogi]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1b:

[QB]I have never once ever seen any wargame computer or non computer ever end up looking just like the way it did in history.

I agree with "just like" but if the game is a capable of realistic combat depiction you should be able to get similar results. From the answers so far it would appear that the game does not (at least very seldom) result in this. Perhaps it is a combination of the combat result system and research system. Naval and air combat may be a big part of this. As noted in a different discussion thread the way land combat depicts the results of armor vs infantry and replacements may also play a part. Do I expect the game to show the exact outcome? - No! Do I expect that a change in strategy should change the outcome? - Yes! Does rnadom chance play a part? - Yes! But if a game is good at providing a realistic depiction of historical combat, then doesn't it make sense that similar tactics give similar results? - Yes!

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Guequierre:

I agree with "just like" but if the game is a capable of realistic combat depiction you should be able to get similar results. From the answers so far it would appear that the game does not (at least very seldom) result in this. Perhaps it is a combination of the combat result system and research system. Naval and air combat may be a big part of this. As noted in a different discussion thread the way land combat depicts the results of armor vs infantry and replacements may also play a part. Do I expect the game to show the exact outcome? - No! Do I expect that a change in strategy should change the outcome? - Yes! Does rnadom chance play a part? - Yes! But if a game is good at providing a realistic depiction of historical combat, then doesn't it make sense that similar tactics give similar results? - Yes!

But it does do this. What it doesn't do is provide for either manpower limits which determined the outcome of the war early on. Also not featured are political factors that forced some strategic decisions that we are not hemmed in by.

[lwchen]

If you're a fairly advanced player, try a 1.06 game as the Allies. Give the Axis Expert AI and +2 experience and you'll likely get a game that plays similar to how WW2 actually went.

Germany is so powerful in the beginning she is able to take out Spain, Portugal, and her own satellite nations in the Balkans. By mid-1943 Germany will have something like 6 panzer armies and 8 air fleets.

Britain can do basically nothing in the early game except hang on and invest tech. The RAF will get slaughtered against the experienced Germans so the Battle of Britain is actually a battle between the Luftwaffe and British air defense installations.

France falls by June 1940 as usual, sometimes as early as March. Russia enters the war right around June 1941 primarily because Germany has run out of countries to fight. At the beginning the Russian army gets spanked so badly it winds up near Moscow around late 1942 ... just when the Siberian Army shows up to turn the tide.

America enters the war about the same time as Russia due to all the German aggression. By 1943 America and Britain have sufficient force to invade the mainland. This causes Germany to pull back 40% of her forces in the eastern front. With high tech jets and industrial capacity, the RAF (including carriers) is able to hold their own against the Luftwaffe. American armies and Shermans fighting alongside Free French forces eventually drive the Wermacht back.

1943 is the year of decision. If the Allied player waits any longer, Russia cannot hold out. Allied troops lack experience, but make up for it with technological advances and a greater economic base. German reinforcements simply cost too much for her fragile industrial base (400 MPPs per turn) to keep pumping out. Slowly the Russian army is able to beat back the poorly supplied German army on the eastern front.

In the west, once air superiority is established, it is only a matter of time before the Allies take Paris and march to the Rhine. If the Allies own Paris, and the Russians still hold Stalingrad and Moscow, the outcome is pretty much decided ... just like it happened historically.

The main differences are that Germany conquers everything from Spain to Bulgaria, and Italy will likely go after Greece as well. The Germans are extremely unlikely to get to Moscow by December 1941. D-Day will likely be required in 1943 to save the Russians. There is no Allied strategic bombing offensive; the Luftwaffe is too powerful until Britain has sufficient jet power. Sicily, Italy, and basically the entire Mediterranean is not a factor as Britain simply cannot afford to send troops and HQs down there against the experienced Italian navy. For some reason the Italians don't take advantage of this.

Try it. It kicked my ass the first time. I suggest being very patient with building up America and Britain before D-Day. Also, use a mobile defense in Russia. In my second game, Berlin fell in early 1945 to the Soviet juggernaut, while the Brits and Americans wound up in Rome by late 1945.

[Yogi]

Originally posted by lwchen:

---- the outcome is pretty much decided ... just like it happened historically. ---- The main differences are that Germany conquers everything from Spain to Bulgaria, and Italy will likely go after Greece as well. ----- D-Day will likely be required in 1943 to save the Russians. There is no Allied strategic bombing offensive Sicily, Italy, and basically the entire Mediterranean is not a factor as Britain simply cannot afford to send troops and HQs down there against the experienced Italian navy.

Once again my point is I have yet to see a truly similar result. Most games the Mediterranean is truly not a factor. You are right the Allies just can't afford to put in the effort and the Germans can better spend their effort elsewhere. Add to that is the U.S with the alloted mmp just can't do the historical contribution. In fact this may be one of the biggest issues with historical accuracy. (the US just can't produce the historical superiroity in air, sea or even land unit numbers in time if at all) Absent major axis mistakes, the allies are unlikely to be able able to recreate the historical results in the historical time span.

The game is based on a historical event, but it is not (nor perhaps was it meant to be) a good recreation of the actual historical factors. Perhaps SC2 if/when it comes, will attempt to change this. Make no mistake though, I still love this game as a game and will continue to play it over and over again.

[Yogi]

I hate to answer my own post, but for what it is worth I just finished a game about as close to historical out come as I may ever see again.

Briefly, ver 1.06 basic AI setting with computer for Axis. Fog of war in effect. Started normal enough. British began investing in research and air units as best they could. Axis seemed to hold back in west after fall of France and went after Russia. After US came the US also tried as much research as possible. US and British forces sent to North Africa and knocked the Italians out. Italian Fleets had been destroyed earlier.

Invaded Sicily and started up the Boot like the real thing. D-Day came in Nov 43. Near as I can tell Axis had invested strongly in air units, which may have become too costly to keep up and didn't leave enough ground forces to keep a strong enough push in Russia. The Russians were fairly strong when D-Day came along. By Summer 44 France was Liberated and the Russians had advanced much of the way back to the border. By late Fall of 1945 Russian orces were in Germany and Berlin was taken by US forces. Headquaters used for allied were Montgomery and Bradley taking the Africa and Italain campaigns. Patton and Alexander took the West Front. I won't go into fuller details for fear of boring you all.

I guess the biggest difference from historical were that the Axis did not put up a fight in North Africa except with the original Italian placed units and D-Day came in 1943.