How exactly will the "super" Fog of War work?

[The Commissar]

I just want to make sure about something, and ask BTS if this will be adressed:

I think anyone here who hasn't seen a suicidal jeep scout has either had the game for less then a month or is playing very realism oriented opponents. You all know how it goes: send super fast, light jeep to scout out all questionable positions knowing fully well that it will not survive the experience.

I had this happen a few times, and I must comment. One game, I killed the jeep scout after it rolled over a hill I was hiding my armor behind. I killed it within 4 seconds. Now, my opponent of course knew fully well what killed it and where I was because the jeep must of had a telepathical link to Battalion HQ. Surely no one could possibly spot something, turn the radio, tune the frewquency, and report what they saw in detail in under 4 seconds.

Same for hidden AT guns. I just love the opponents who send quick AFV's to trigger off my AT guns. Some scout car or the like speeds by the edge of a forest. The AT gun firs, usually misses, and starts turning while the car speeds off and the gun's position is known.

I say that if the AFV was killed by a hidden gun on the first shot, and was not seen by friendly forces, the position of the gun should not even be known. Not even if it is a gun at all!

Hell, I'll argue that the position of the scout should not even be known if it not seen! The guy isn't sitting on the radio, blabbing coordinates away every second. Sure, you would have a rough idea (represented by a generic marker perhaps), but not anything exact. The only time you will see the scout again is when you see the burning wreckage and guess at what might happen. Like in real life. This way, a player cannot say that "OK, I lost my Scout car after I went past the treeline over there. Thus, there's a good chance I should stay the hell away from it or even bombard any suspicious looking spots."

OK, so is this anything like what we will see? Appreciate any responces you guys choose to make despite your super busy schedule.

Cheers!

EDIT: Just added some stuff I left out before.

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ]

[Cybeq]

I don't know about this "super fog of war" you speak of. Are you speaking of relative spotting? I beleive relative spotting is simply this: when you select a unit you will only be able to see enemy units which are in the LOS of the currently selected unit or somfink like this.

I think that playability has to be balanced with the ultimate in fog of war realism such as you describe. Imagine sending a scout unit out of your A0's LOS and then losing the ability to control that unit because you lost sight of it! That would seriously suck and I wouldn't play a game that imposed such limitations on the player. I'm all for realism but not at the cost of playability.

[Schrullenhaft]

It looks like you are asking about 'relative spotting'. Unfortunately this feature won't be implemented in CMBB. It is intended to be coded up for CMII and it will be quite an undertaking since this feature hasn't been truly implemented in a computer wargame at this scale. There will be all sorts of playability and coding issues to deal with and this part of the new engine may be one of the most time consuming features to add in.

I believe there will be some attempts to reduce some of the current spotting capabilities, but it will not measure up to what most people want, which can only be achieved with 'relative spotting'. This can't be just simply 'added in' to the current engine since it has profound effects on the way everything works. Only an engine rewrite would be able to accomplish the effect of 'relative spotting' without innumberable situations breaking the model and ruining the effect. That's why you won't be seeing this feature in CMBB, which will have many changes, but won't be a complete rewrite of the game's engine.

[ 09-23-2001: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[The Commissar]

Hmm, I didn't mean to ask about relative spotting because I remember BTS saying they would not include it, but it turns out that that's really what it sounds like.

What I meant to talk about was the higher level of FOW that BTS mentioned in their previews of CMBB. I wasn't sure what it would feature, and sort of hoped that units could be lost from visual contact if they venture away from the main body or bodies of friendly troops. So as to stop gamey scouting tactics. Does this qualify as relative spotting?

[Schrullenhaft]

I don't know if what you desire can be programmed in without a lot of problems("..sort of hoped that units could be lost from visual contact if they venture away from the main body or bodies of friendly troops."). Such a change to the current engine would be in need of constant refinement and tweaks to achieve this goal, but in the end many people wouldn't be consistently happy with the results. Relative spotting will be the only worthwhile method of achieveing this goal.

I believe that the 'extreme' FOW that will be included in CMBB will eliminate some of the details about the enemy you currently receive in CMBO. Right now you can tell the experience level and casualty status of the enemy units once you've come into sufficient contact. This info will no longer be available with the Extreme FOW option. I'm not sure if other spotting changes will be included with this FOW option (which is the very information you're after).