Gremlin Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 I wasn't sure how to search for this since it deals with a number of related topics. Links to appropriate threads would be appreciated. I'm not sure how exactly sound contacts are handled in CM, but perhaps in CM2 when weather settings are chosen for a scenario or QB, prevailing (and even dynamic) wind speeds and directions could be incorporated. If nothing else, these would have an effect on sound contacts, depending on strength of the wind and whether or not your units are up or down wind. As another meteorological condition--actually astronomical--could sun and/or moon position or phase somehow be included? Try driving in the morning or evening with the sun in your face, and you can imagine how this could affect spotting in CM2 if units are oriented and/or placed towards one side of the map. New, crescent, gibbous, and full moon phases of course affect light levels dramatically. (D-Day planning, for instance, was based in large part on moon cycles.) Would there be any way to visually incorporate the sun into the backdrop bmps? Check out the blinding sun effects in Ground Control to see how cool and realistic such a feature could be. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 31, 2001 Author Share Posted January 31, 2001 Here's an example screen from GC: http://www.zdnet.com/gamespot/filters/products/screens/0,11105,914166-23,00.html Playing the demo will give you a better sense. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by Gremlin: As another meteorological condition--actually astronomical--could sun and/or moon position or phase somehow be included? Try driving in the morning or evening with the sun in your face, and you can imagine how this could affect spotting in CM2 if units are oriented and/or placed towards one side of the map. New, crescent, gibbous, and full moon phases of course affect light levels dramatically. (D-Day planning, for instance, was based in large part on moon cycles.) Would there be any way to visually incorporate the sun into the backdrop bmps? Check out the blinding sun effects in Ground Control to see how cool and realistic such a feature could be. Although such a feature would be nice, I doubt it is possible to incorporate. The effects would be too hard to code, IMO. After all, the sun rises and sets, and its effects on vision are thus varied as time passes. We would have to incorporate things such as the time of the battle and all such stuff. Too much hassle, IMO. D-Day was 1) Strategic planning, not Tactical like CM 2) The Moon Phase was in reference to how strong the tide on the beach was, not visibility issues. The effects of games like GC are indeed beautiful, but I dont expect to see this until CMII, with the engine re-write. Those effects are possible with technology BTS doesnt not plan on incorporating, as they stated in the multitude of graphic-related threads. Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Oh, and as a bit of Off-Topic related to Ground Control itself... I played the demo, and was strangely dissapointed. I think I have been spoiled by the realism of CM - even gorgeous graphics dont do it for me anymore! Soon, Ill be studying armor-penetration charts and yelling at newbies on the board for not getting a minute detail correct on an extremely rare WW2 vehicle. Arrrgh! Im becomming Groggy! Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 31, 2001 Author Share Posted January 31, 2001 Happily, I already thought of those rejoinders: Moon phases were used for planning based not merely on the tides, but also on the amount of moonlight available during different times of night as the moon rose (for the glider troops and paratroopers). Since CM battles are usually scaled to only represent an hour or less of combat, sun movement would be minimal. You could just view it like this: morning battle in December, so the sun is roughly X degrees above the horizon and X degrees south of due east on the horizon. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. [This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-31-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Climate efects are already satisfactorily modelled in CM. They might come up with Extreme Cold for CM2, howver. One minor tweak that I'd like myself would be variable sighting distances for overcast, fog, night, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 31, 2001 Author Share Posted January 31, 2001 Unless I misunderstand you, sighting distances already vary based on those conditions, though they seem to be fixed for each setting. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Gremlin, that's my impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by Gremlin: D-Day planning, for instance, was based in large part on moon cycles. Gremlin, D-Day's planning around moon cycles was to do with the level of the tides, at low tide more obstacles would be exposed, rather than the amount of light or glare the moon giving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 31, 2001 Author Share Posted January 31, 2001 From Cornelius Ryan's The Longest Day, p. 57: "The paratroopers and glider-borne infantry who would launch the assault...needed the moonlight. But their surprise attack depended on darkness up to the time they arrived over the dropping zones. Thus their critical demand was for a late-rising moon." Ryan goes on to discuss the moon-influenced tides. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by Gremlin: Moon phases were used for planning based not merely on the tides, but also on the amount of moonlight available during different times of night as the moon rose (for the glider troops and paratroopers). I believe you are mistaking this with Operation Market Garden, in its entirety. D-Day itself was the day of invasion. Any cycles of the moon for this amphibious landing would have to do with tides, not visibility, since the troops started landing in daytime. Gliders, again, were part of Market Garden, not actual D-Day. Originally posted by Gremlin: Since CM battles are usually scaled to only represent an hour or less of combat, sun movement would be minimal. You could just view it like this: morning battle in December, so the sun is roughly X degrees above the horizon and X degrees south of due east on the horizon. Yes, in the middle of the day, this would not change much. However, doing an early morning or a early evening battle, even a tiny battle of a mere 15 turns can bring a large change in visibility. If you've ever sat up to see the sun rise/set, you know how quickly the change between light and darkness takes place. So, either make complex calculations (not feasible), or not have light change during morning/evening battles (unrealistic). I think BTS will pick the third option of not doing it. Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 31, 2001 Author Share Posted January 31, 2001 Regarding the moon, I'm talking--I thought it was obvious from context--about the glider and parachute landings the night of June 5/6, 1944. The context is also quite clear in Ryan, and I've read the same thing elsewhere regarding the moon and visibility that night. Those landings where an integral, major part of the whole D-Day plan. Market Garden and Overlord weren't the same thing. Market Garden was in Sept. '44 *** Yes, I'm quite aware of the rapid change in angle when the sun is near the horizon. I don't suggest or expect BTS to model the moving sun, but rather was suggesting that the basic position of the sun be modelled, with implications for spotting and aiming. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. [This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-31-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by Gremlin: Regarding the moon, I'm talking--I thought it was obvious from context--about the glider and parachute landings the night of June5/6. That's quite clear in Ryan, and I've read the same thing elsewhere. Those landings where an integral, major part of the whole D-Day plan. Market Garden and Overlord weren't the same thing. Market Garden was in Sept. '44 Im sorry Gremlin, I must have misunderstood you. By D-Day, I thought you meant the actual landing process, not the overall Op. Market Garden, which did involve the glider landings which were planned with moon phases in mind. Either way, its strategy beyond CM's scale. Originally posted by Gremlin: Yes, I'm quite aware of the rapid change in angle when the sun is near the horizon. I don't suggest or expect BTS to model the moving sun, but rather was suggesting that the basic position of the sun be modelled, with implications for spotting and aiming. Yes, I understand this, but since the sun moves during the course of the day, setting it in a given position wont change much from what is in CM now. If you want to get complex, you have to go for the full light cycle, or have people complain that time stood still Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted February 1, 2001 Author Share Posted February 1, 2001 Fighting with regard to the position of the sun goes back to ancient times. You can find Sun Tzu mentioning it, for instance. It's not a minor issue. I don't propose that BTS hire astronomers and climatologists for the Ultimate Weather Simulator, but rather was wondering if there would be a simplified way to include the effects of wind, sun, and moon. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Gremlin, Hey, Im not disagreeing with you. I'd like to see this, but according to BTS' latest views on such things as upgrades, Im not sure theyd sacrifise the time for this idea. On Page 6 of the Gunny Bunny's graphics thread, you can find a list Steve wrote for suggesting upgrades. Ther upgrade suggested much match all 7 (i think) rules Steve stated for BTS to consider doing it. A major rule is the time devotion to it. That the only reason Im doubtful about the whole idea. The effects will be either over simplified, or too hard to do in the time frame BTS is aiming for. Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted February 1, 2001 Author Share Posted February 1, 2001 I understand it would take time, like any other new material put into CM2. I imagine in this case that a simplified version of what I'm suggesting would meet two vital criteria for cost effectiveness and relevance: 1) not nearly as complex or demanding to code as some of the graphics improvements people have suggested 2) would have a direct effect on game mechanics, again unlike a lot of the graphics suggestions. These are tactically relevant--even highly important--considerations. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. [This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 02-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Originally posted by The Commissar: I believe you are mistaking this with Operation Market-Garden, in its entirety. D-Day itself was the day of invasion. And I believe you're mistaking Market- Garden with Overlord Overlord was the code name for the Normandy landings. You're right that Market-Garden did involve glider troops, but it was in the Netherlands and several months later. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 I'd like to cast my vote for Extreme Cold (although maybe we should figure out one word for it to fit into the interface, like "frigid" or "arctic." I would be surprised if CM wasn't already planning something in this area, since we are talking about the russian front. I suppose, to be realistic, it would need to affect different units differently, although I'm not sure what the precise symptoms should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Space Thing Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 It would kind-of neat to occaisionally have the rain/ snow start and stop in a scenario instead of falling from the beginning to the end in a steady manner. Maybe have it lighten up gradually before it stops? It would seem a little more realistic that way. The ground conditions don't have to change though. Maybe for CM2? BTW, I love the sound effects when it rains in CM. It would be a great sound to fall asleep to with the thunder and everything. OH YEAH, what about quick lightning flashes? Thunder always has flashes of light (somewhere) that precede it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted February 2, 2001 Author Share Posted February 2, 2001 Andrew, the extreme cold froze oil and water in vehicles and trains, froze grease needed to lubricate gun parts, and of course caused frostbite injuries from wind chills of -40 degrees Fahrenheit. Proper winter clothing for the German troops was often in short supply, as was food and other provisions. I'd imagine that CM2 scenarios will have to model a lot of veteran troops as essentially conscript due to the physical hardships. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Perhaps the direction of the sun in dawn/dusk setting might be modelled simply by adjusting screen brightness depending on which direction the camera is pointing. Dark away from due-East (or West), brighter facing? You could also double the treat recognition time or lower the weapons accuracy for combatants looking straight East (or West) into the sun. This might be pretty accurate, but I bet it'd drive us gamers CRAZY watching our troops as they stumble around blindly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by Gremlin: Andrew, the extreme cold froze oil and water in vehicles and trains, froze grease needed to lubricate gun parts, and of course caused frostbite injuries from wind chills of -40 degrees Fahrenheit. Right, that's the kind of thing I was thinking about. But what's the best way to *implement* it. Is there a general "in extreme cold in 1941 German vehicles get the follwing minuses," perhaps dependent on vehicles? Or do you get weatherized and non-weatherized vehicles? WRT to infantry, I also thought of your idea of reducing the quality level of poorly equipped troops in extreme cold, although perhaps not all the way from vets to conscripts (if only because that leaves no place for regulars to go). But I wasn't sure if that accounted for all of the disadvantages of winter. Troops inside houses shouldn't be penalized, for example, and troops dug in in foxholes should be penalized than troops not dug in. Perhaps poorly equipped vets should start out as vets, but every turn they spend not indoors or in a foxhole has a chance of causing them to drop to a lower level. Or maybe it should make them brittle. I suppose extreme could would also affect C&C, as people would be busy shivering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Chupacabra, Heh-heh, you caught me m8! Damn WW2 code names - why must they be so confusing?! On the issue of cold: Note that the arctic weather affected the Germans more then the Soviets. Soviet tanks were made to perform in Russia's conditions, while Panzers were not. Soviet tanks should freeze sometimes, but not nearly as much as their German counterparts. This could be handled like bogging in CM1. Every turn, your tanks stand a chance of breaking down due to cold. For infantry, it gets trickier. Troops fully exposed in the open, opposed to troops indoor and in foxholes/tranches should be more penalized, of course. Although I dont think reducing experience models troops reactions properly, something like this could be done: -Fatigue increases -Troops react slower -Troops panick faster -Every turn, you run the risk of suffering casualties to frostbite. Germans are more affected by this, as are their tanks. The casualty factors can be affected by thing like movement. Technically, if a person moves around, he isnt as cold as someone standing still. Tank who are functioning arent as lickely to freeze due to heat, as are humans. So maybe this could be taken into calculation as well. I think this would model things a bit more realisticly. Sure would present a challenge if your troops/tanks started dropping like flies, like in real life. *shudder* Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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