Nabla Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Originally posted by Jarmo: I think the leadership structure is one thing that will differ from other nationalities. Maybe just having a company HQ, but not platoon HQ's. Or even having just the battallion HQ. Soviets had a huge shortage of officers, at least in the beginning stages of war. I believe trying to use conscripts without HQ's in any "intelligent" manner would lead to even greater disaster than what follows from a massed charge. Sounds like a very intelligent solution, my fellow namesake. Nabla aka Jarmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Originally posted by Warmaker: Seriously, after the war Allied interviews with German veterans of the Ostfront all indicated ... Hardly an accurate source of Soviet military information. Try some of the translated Russian documents available on the sites listed below. Also, the Red Army used these wave tactics in armor too, esp. early in the war. For example, it wasn't quite surprising for a very small handful of Tigers having to stand off and stem a huge mass of T-34s rushing their way. Funny, I didn't think the Soviets had 'huge masses' of T-34's to throw at the enemy early in the war. If they had, then the Germans would've never got far since the Panther didn't start showing up until 1943. So they'd have to use MK IV's - sorta like a Sherman Panther engagement in reverse. The principle 'encouragement' to use 'human wave' attacks would be to have the German player outnumbered like 5:1. While the Soviet player might actually use decent tactics, it'll appear to the German player to be a 'human wave'. And if you ask him afterwards the German players will say things like the German veterans said. " . . . yea I got my ass kicked, but I sure showed him a thing or two." " . . . yea well if we had that kind of advantage in material we could've kick our ass in half the time." " . . . no Stalingrad was not a stupid waste of brave men. That you have to ask clearly shows you don't understand the unquestioned superiority of the German Army in all thing military." " . . . no we did NOT use 'tank wave' attacks at Kursk. Only the Soviets did. Our tanks tactics are to be referred to as 'frontal assault' tactics." ------------------ Check out http://www.geocities.com/funfacts2001/ or http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/ or http://www.britwar.co.uk/members/FunFacts/ for military documents written during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Originally posted by Guy w/gun: what's going to stop me from NOT using my troops this way Most probably, nothing will stop you from using your troops this way. But if the BTS boys get it right (and I'm sure they will), then there will be times when that's going to be the best bang for your buck. -dale ------------------ I LOST A BLOOD HAMSTER BATTLE TO PETERNZ. MY SIG FILE IS NOW HIS AND I AM HIS SLAVE. PLEASE ABUSE ME AS YOU SEE FIT AND CALL ME A DOO-DOO HEAD. IT IS MY PLACE IN LIFE, I WILLINGLY ACCEPT IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-00 Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 I hope BTS doesn't hamstring the Russian too much. If they give too much validity to writers like Guderian, von Mellenthin, and Carell the Russians will be tactically impotent. Early on Russian command and control was truly abysmal but from 43 on they became proficient in combined arms tactics. We have to remember that the Russians crushed the Germans Strategically, Operationally and Tactically. Did the Russians have the tactical finesse of the elite German Divisions. No. But they didn't need it particularly during the later stages of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Guy w/gun said: In other words, what's going to stop me from using these hordes of infantry in a more intelligent manner? Why will I want to use them in a human wave fashion? Besides all the in-game command and control problems already mentioned, I can think of another thing: realistic defending unit boundaries represented by map edges. This is actually something applicable to CM1 scenario design as well. Basically, the idea is that if the CM scenario represents a battalion-sized part of a division- or larger-sized battle, then the defending side is probably best considered as a section of a long continuous front. Thus, the defending side shouldn't have its flanks in the air for the attacker to maneuver around. Ergo, the attacker is forced into a frontal assault by the narrow map. Hoffbauer said: according to "killmore" (and apparently despite all the clear historic evidence) russian human wave attacks never happened after 1941....! This isn't true. When the encircled Russians were trying to break out of the pocket in the May 1942 Kharkov battle, they reportedly used the stereotypical Russian human waves: masses of drunk, often unarmed soldiers charging into dug-in MGs with arms linked. Apparently they did this mostly at night, although the Germans used flares extensively. ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Bullethead, perhaps you didn't understand what i was trying to say: you know that and I know that and pretty much everybody else does, but try explaining this to "killmore". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 Originally posted by JoePrivate: Just had an idea to add to your points, in addition to a long command delay these troops could also be further restricted by allowing one waypoint only, to simulate a complete lack of tactical training and finesse. That may produce a human wave style attack! Interesting thought. By "one waypoint" I assume you mean one mid-course correction, not just the endpoint of movement. Otherwise, it might be too restrictive. You might want to allow them to move around obstacles and reform their line, etc. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 Michael emrys said: Interesting thought. By "one waypoint" I assume you mean one mid-course correction, not just the endpoint of movement. Otherwise, it might be too restrictive. You might want to allow them to move around obstacles and reform their line, etc. You know, this single waypoint thing is what you get when you select a whole group of units and give them a movement command. So maybe it would be easiest just to make the Russian hordes only capable of receiving group movement orders. Don't know if this single waypoint is realistic for such occasions, but if it is, this would be pretty slick When units are moving, the AI will detour them around impassable terrain, so I don't think we have to worry about that. ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 You know, there are some situations in CM now where a human wave attack makes tactical sense. Let's say you have a US MMG and rifle squad in foxholes defending some area. In front of the squad and MG there is 150m or so of open area, but then there is some light cover or the reverse side of a hill. German player has a SMG platoon, no arty, and no MGs. What's the best way to take this position? If you have to attack, a wave attack doesn't look awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Did anyone mention steppes yet? If you've ever seen one, they are big, flat, and almost completely open. If the enemy is on the other side of such a large field, and there isnt cover elsewhere, and you are commanded to attack...well, you get the picture. ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 An alternative is the box command. Thats when individual units cant be given effective squad level orders (cause of delays) but you box off a bunch off them and point them towards the enemy (charge). The trick would be to line up everyone about right (taking a few turns to prepare) and then giving them the order. If the units had a command line (black or red) they would go (the black line might be delayed a bit). Units beyond any line wont. It models the situation nicely. I think I mentioned it once before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Originally posted by The Commissar: Did anyone mention steppes yet? Yes, but not all the fighting took place on the steppes. In the north there were extensive forested areas. The terrain around Kursk was largely low, rolling hills cut by gullies that had trees growing in them (didn't somebody post some photos of that area a while back?). Of course there was urban fighting. The Soviet Union was definitely a mixed bag of terrains. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Originally posted by Michael emrys: Yes, but not all the fighting took place on the steppes. In the north there were extensive forested areas. The terrain around Kursk was largely low, rolling hills cut by gullies that had trees growing in them (didn't somebody post some photos of that area a while back?). Of course there was urban fighting. The Soviet Union was definitely a mixed bag of terrains. Michael Yes, I was mentioning it because a large part of the early war was over these wide open steppes (and of course later on, when the Soviets were pushing the Nazis back) and I figured fighting over them with little tank support (before the mass production of quality armor) would result in waves of men. Id imagine it would be hard to do a large wave attack in a city area! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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