GriffinCheng+ Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Ladies and Gentlemen, I would suggest that we should remove all references to "that famous board game on WW2 tactical combat" (TFBGoWW2TC) in your future map and scenarioes. Exsisting ones should also have these references removed asap. I do *NOT* represent or affliate the maker or parent company of (TFBGoWW2TC). I am just one of the many who enjoy all your passion, labor of love and hardworking all along. I write all these to preserve the enjoyments freely on our most favourite computer wargame. Thank you very much for your kind attention. Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" [This message has been edited by GriffinCheng+ (edited 02-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 I've read attentively all the thread on ASL2CM closure, and thought a little about it.. And I concluded exactly the opposite of GriffinCheng : we should continue to use ASL material for scenarios AS LONG AS we recognize it. Why ? Because : 1 - Copyright is on original ideas and tools, and protects property and business against copists => We do not copy ANY ASL principle/rule/system, we use CM ones => We do NOT weaken their business with our scens, they are CM scens => We should recognize the scens are inspired by ASL by justly naming the name and copyright. 2- Copyright DOES NOT APPLY on history or maps depicting "real" geography => So I can design a say "Normandy" map with some troops of some Brit Div and call it "Hill 112" without infriging anyone's copyright. 3- it begins to become silly to even not say "ASL"...never ever a copyright forbade to cite a name, it only forbids from using it to the detriment of its owner and is business ! I can say "CM sucks because.." (eh eh) if I want, that's free speech and not copyright infringement . It's also appropriate to say "ASL blah blah " on CM Forum because it shares same topic, namely WW2 tactical sim. It's amazing how people become scary as soon as some company 'rep or lawyer whines...US habit ? I won't fall in it, and even think of hosting the ex-ASL2CM scens... with their author's permission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 I spoke to an intellectual property lawyer about this issue, and he seems the believe that the owner of the ASL rights would have a viable case. I will not go into details here, but suffice it to say that in our lawsuit-happy culture this could at the very least be a major inconvenience should the owner of ASL decide to press the issue. Besides, I think TFBGoWW2TC is a fine game and I look forward to the adaptations of its numerous excellent scenarios to CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philistine Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO: I've read attentively all the thread on ASL2CM closure, and thought a little about it.. And I concluded exactly the opposite of GriffinCheng : we should continue to use ASL material for scenarios AS LONG AS we recognize it. Why ? Because : Just a response to your thoughts and some other posts I've seen. I've also followed these threads, and seen a number of different viewpoints. As an attempt to explain a company's potential reasoning, I offer the following (not saying that I necessarily agree with or condone all of them. but these are some of the issues a company will have). FWIW, I don't practice intellectual property law, so take this all for what it's worth ($.02 at best ). 1 - Copyright is on original ideas and tools, and protects property and business against copists => We do not copy ANY ASL principle/rule/system, we use CM ones -and- => We should recognize the scens are inspired by ASL by justly naming the name and copyright. Just because you are making some changes doesn't mean it's not a violation of copyright. Copyrights protect "derivative works", that is, works based upon the original. E.g., if you make a movie based upon a book, you are violating the book's copyright (and vice versa). Taking a ASL scenario and changing it only in ways to make it compatible with CM is pretty clearly a derivative work and a violation of the copyright owned by the scenario designer (and more likely the company as most companies force their designers to assign any rights in the scenario to the company). => We do NOT weaken their business with our scens, they are CM scens Companies usually have two issues here. 1st (and foremost) is an opportunity cost issue. The thinking goes in two directions: 1st--if there is a market for ASL scenarios converted to CM, then BTS (or the designers) should pay for the privilige of using them. 2nd--If users cannot simply download ASL scenario's converted to CM, they are more likely to go out and buy ASL, if for no other reason than to use the scenario information to make their own scenarios. The other issue is one of quality control. Having a copyright (and, more accurately, for the name "ASL", itself, a trademark) the company wants to assure itself that any scenario that's out there is a good product, so that someone doesn't download a poor ASL scenario and be dissuaded from later buying ASL because of the quality of the scenario. (This theory is a bit tough to swallow after Computer Squad Leader....) 2- Copyright DOES NOT APPLY on history or maps depicting "real" geography => So I can design a say "Normandy" map with some troops of some Brit Div and call it "Hill 112" without infriging anyone's copyright. Yes and no. History is not copyrightable. However, maps are certainly copyrightable. (Look down at the bottom of any commercial map. You'll see a copyright symbol). There are stories (which may be apocryphal) that many map publishers put one or two false place names in a map in order to prove copyright cases against competitors. History is not copyrightable. However, there is a big difference in doing historical research and coming up with very similar parameters in a "Normandy" scenario and directly copying an existing historical ASL scenario. Although the end result may be the same, one is a copyright violaton, and one isn't. 3- it begins to become silly to even not say "ASL"...never ever a copyright forbade to cite a name, it only forbids from using it to the detriment of its owner and is business ! I can say "CM sucks because.." (eh eh) if I want, that's free speech and not copyright infringement . It's also appropriate to say "ASL blah blah " on CM Forum because it shares same topic, namely WW2 tactical sim. It's amazing how people become scary as soon as some company 'rep or lawyer whines...US habit ? I won't fall in it, and even think of hosting the ex-ASL2CM scens... with their author's permission I think the reason you are seeing more and more of these "cease and desist" type situation is because of the internet. Despite the fact that it is a clear copyright violation for an individual to directly copy an ASL scenario to make a CM scenario, there was never a problem because (a) nobody ever found out; and ( even if they did, nobody cared. Just to explain the potential problem to a lawyer, have him write a letter and follow up on compliance would cost several hundred to a thousand dollars depending on the circumstances. (I'm not defending this system, but that's the way it is folks). It's simply not economically worth it to stop Jim Bob out there from doing it for himself or one or two of his friends. But with the internet, and the potential of thousands of people getting content, some portion of which might just otherwise have gone to the copyright owner, they're beginning to sit up and take notice. Anyway, that's my take on it. I'm as sad as anyone to see the ASL scenarios go down due to copyright issues (if that's even what actually did happen), but I do understand it. --Philistine [This message has been edited by Philistine (edited 02-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by GriffinCheng+: I do represent or affliate the maker or parent company of (TFBGoWW2TC). I am just one of the many who enjoy all your passion, labor of love and hardworking all along. GriffinCheng+, What does this mean, exactly? The other day you were saying you were going to set up an alternative to ASL2CM, now you are saying you are affiliated with Hasbro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by patboivin: GriffinCheng+, What does this mean, exactly? The other day you were saying you were going to set up an alternative to ASL2CM, now you are saying you are affiliated with Hasbro? I think he inadvertently dropped the word "not" as in "not affiliated", but that is pure conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted February 13, 2001 Author Share Posted February 13, 2001 [sweating] the word "not" is omitted by human error and sink that Japanese fisihing boat. I heartly apologize the error made. Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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