What exactly are Volksgrenadiers?

[Schugger]

You are welcome, Michael

Actually, after I've done some reading now, I've found out that the term "Landsturm" also existed and was the equivalent of militia.

If the "Landsturm" merged into the newly found " Landwehr" after the Prussian army reform in 1813, is beyong my knowledge but it seems likely.

To confuse your grog-mind even more, "Landwehr" is also a term for ancient field works. To get an idea of how they look like try to imagine the bocage you'll find in france. Parts of this ancient Landwehr thingie can still be found in the southwest of Germany and kept intact. Seems like our For-Fathers in the early middle ages have started to build the Westwall

[Henri]

Originally posted by Lorak:

They are not to be confused with the volkstrum. The home guard made up of old men and children.

Actually a regular Volksgrenadier squad has about the same firepower as a Volkstrum squad(100@ 100 m), and a Volksgrenadier Pioneer squad has LESS (87)!

Henri

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Most have covered the compass, but I can add a few points on two different subjects. One, a little on the history of the term "grenadier" before and during WW II, and two, a little on the unit quality and TOEs of VG infantry divisions.

First the former. Someone else already pointed out the origin, way back in the days of musket and pike warfare. Many different infantry designations originated in tasks long since done away with as seperate jobs (fusilier is another of those, for example).

By the time of the Napoleonic wars, the designations was widely used for slightly different but similar organizational subdivisions, where it definitely had a "selected" connotation. Most infantry battalions had one company designated as the grenadier company, and this company was the last, rear rank when the company was formed.

They played a role not unlike that "3rd-rankers" of the Roman legions. In those days first-rank was not a compliment; the Romans put the youngest men in the front line and the veterans in the 3rd. The idea was they were the least likely to run away and would literally force the others to face the battle. In the Napoleonic period, a standard infantry battalion in column would have its rear ranks formed by the grenadier company. Men were selected for it based on service in the battalion.

In that era, battalions often detached companies for seperate duty. The most common of these tasks was skirmishing ahead of the battalion as so called "light infantry", meaning open order as opposed to dense ranks, harassing fire at range with aimed shots, get out of dodge if closer threatened. Most nationalities used special companies for this role, some used selected portions of each company. The grenadiers generally did *not* have this function as their primary job, but could be and were pressed into it when necessary as an additional detached company. In addition, the grenadier company furnished "cadres" to the other companies. Meaning, its privates replaced NCO casualties in the other companies.

From its deployment within a typical infantry battalion, the designation "grenadier" spread to mean something more like the 3rd-rankers generally. Larger units were formed with this designation. These varied - some were ad hoc organizations made by detaching all the actual grenadier companies from a number of line infantry battalions. Others were formed by the same process of picking, or employed as a last reserve, or were used as cadres and sources of new NCOs, or any mix of the above. And where designated grenadiers because of it. Thus, the 3rd division of the Old Guard infantry of Napoleon (the original "grognards" or "grumblers", by the way) was the grenadier division.

The guards designation, BTW, was a somewhat different animal. It refered to units specifically designated to protect a sovereign, often officers by the upper nobility. During the course of the Napoleonic wars, however, Napoleon in particular turned the designation of "guard" into a somewhat empty honorific, by expanding what was designated the young guard, at first recruits for the old guard and an elite body of picked veterans, into a giant formation of more than 100,000 men. In the 1814 campaigns, some of the "young guards" had been civilians a few weeks before. This cheapened use of previously meaningful honorific titles seems to be a favorite of dictators throughout history.

In the course of WW II, the Russians used the designation "Guards" in much the same way. They handed out "Guards" designations to units that did well in combat, and at first the designation had meaning as a veteran unit likely to be well-officered. Stalin increased their pay and tried to get them better supplied, as motivation. By later in the war, some many units had been given the designation that 1/3rd or so of the Russian army was "guards". By then it meant little in practice, except perhaps "not green anymore".

It was obvious to many in the German army that the infantry that worked with the tanks was the elite of the infantry arm, by the time of the fall of France certainly. These had been designated "panzergrenadier" from the get-go, and the designation made some historical sense because it refered to picked men for a special duty. Later, the Germans adopted from the Russians the practice of giving unit designation changes as a reward for battle service, although this was relatively rare compared to its use by the Russians. That is the source of some infantry divisions having the designation "grenadier" before the VG units proper came out.

The VG units proper were not picked or crack formations in any way. The designation was handed out automatically to essentially all new infantry divisions. This in fact worked as a kind of reverse designator, because it meant the unit was new or newly rebuilt (although some old ones adopted the name after changing their TOE). An infantry division that did *not* have the VG designation, and especially one with a low "old army" division number (meaning one with only 2 digits) was more likely to be a veteran unit, than a unit called "VG". Which does not mean all such divisions were, because many were gutted in combat then rebuilt.

To understand how much of a change the German army went through in the second half of 1944, you have to appreciate the scale of the losses. Army Group Center, which was nearly half the German army in Russia (which itself had well more than half the troops in the whole German army at the time), was essentially wiped out. Stragglers and rear area troops survived, that is about it. The army in France was also mostly lost either in the attrition of the fighting in Normandy, or captured or destroyed in the Falaise pocket and breakout battles right afterward. There were more surviving stragglers in the west, but they hardly amount to units.

Nevertheless, the Germans recovered on both fronts and stabilized them near the German borders. To do so, they threw an enourmous number of men into the front-line units, at by far the most rapid rate they had ever done so. This was accomplished by #1 cannabilizing the Luftwaffe and its ground units, as well as the smaller navy (the U-boat pens had mostly been lost when France was), #2 combing out rear area units for all spare personnel that could be sent to the fighting units #3 drafting 16 and 17 year olds in addition to the class of men just turning 18, #4 drafting men in their 40s, and those with marginal exemptions from duty because of war industry occupations, plus #5 cutting training time to an absolute minimum.

Naturally, these measures could not produce units of the same quality as the slower processes the Germans had used earlier in the war. There were a fair number of men in their prime brought in by this "drag net", out of the Luftwaffe for example and the rear areas. These were fine "material" in most cases, but certainly were not trained infantrymen. These were mixed with men younger and older than did best in combat, to increase the available numbers (16-18, 40s).

The VG recruits were provided with cadres of veterans and with good officers, although they also had to train some of the new men as lower-ranking sergeants, etc. These cadres were generally of high quality, but contained a portion of men who had already gone well past their peak performance time in combat.

The heavy issue of automatic weapons to the VGs was designed to make up both for a relative lack of heavier weapons and artillery, compared to a standard infantry division, and also to make up for a relative lack of training, especially in marksmenship. There was not time for that.

What the Germans had in abundance was MP40s and panzerfausts, along with a grab-bag of heavier weapons that tended to get away when units were defeated in the field - the mortars, the AA guns, cheap rocket launchers. To stiffen the new formations, there was also a steady stream of assault guns coming out of the factories designated for their use (the tanks went to the panzer and SS formations).

In practice, many of these VG units fought marvelously, and others fought poorly. In CM terms, whether they are regular or green depends on the month and the skill level of the cadre the unit was formed from. Many undoubtedly deserve "green" labels at the time of the westwall and bulge fighting. Some deserve "regular" by the bulge, and the best might rate veteran status in '45. Of course, there will also be variation at the small unit level - I am talking about the bulk or average properties.

The drawbacks of the VG division in practice were its lack of transport - it was leg infantry and many of the guns still had to use horsedrawn wagons - and its relative lack of artillery. This reduced its "staying power" in combat, because the rate of infantry casualties was in practice strongly related to the amount of fire support the men had, compared to its enemies or its defended frontage.

Incidentally, the same drawback was noticed with the Allied airborne divisions when left to fight in the line for long periods. They too had more automatic weapons and in addition were picked men, and they fought very well. But their lack of artillery support meant they took casualties faster than a standard infantry division would have, holding the same front. Bravery and a few submachineguns can sometimes be substituted for a fire mission, but the guys who do it often do not survive the substitution.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Henri wrote

Actually a regular Volksgrenadier squad has about the same firepower as a Volkstrum squad(100@ 100 m), and a Volksgrenadier Pioneer squad has LESS (87)!

Largely true. However, experience would likely benefit the Volksgrenadiers since Volkssturm should most often be Conscript.

The other thing to keep in mind is that a Volkssturm formation (various sizes, never bigger than something like a brigade I think) had no organic heavy weapons, artillery, or transport. They were, for lack of a better term, cannon fodder. But a couple of determined 14 year olds with automatic weapons, in a city fight, are still something you don't want to mess with. The old German movie, The Bridge, is a pretty good example of that (even though it is a movie).

Jason, good post. I would just like to add that Volksgrenadiers suffered from another problem. The SMG units, although high in firepower, are SCREWED if they are engaged at long ranges. This should be no surprise since this is the reason why the rifle was still in service as the standard firearm instead of all SMGS in every army. SMGs are very usefull, but only in the right circumstances. And if you have Green Volksgrenadiers, getting them in close on the counter attack is quite a task!

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

It was obvious to many in the German army that the infantry that worked with the tanks was the elite of the infantry arm, by the time of the fall of France certainly. These had been designated "panzergrenadier" from the get-go, and the designation made some historical sense because it refered to picked men for a special duty. .

I don't believe this is true. They were Schuetzen Regimenter until 1942-3, when the title Panzergrenadier was bestowed.

Grass green piping was granted in 1943 as well.

I knew a vet from Panzergrendierlehr Regiment 901 who showed me his shoulder straps. Schuetzen troops wore rosa, same as panzer troops, until 1943 when all panzergrenadiere were ordered into grass green.

The change was not popular.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Huh - you learn something new every day. The unit histories I've seen have all of them called panzergrenadiers or have it translated armored infantry, earlier than that. But I believe you; I don't read German so I haven't seen originals, just translations.

Thanks for the correction.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

Huh - you learn something new every day. The unit histories I've seen have all of them called panzergrenadiers or have it translated armored infantry, earlier than that. But I believe you; I don't read German so I haven't seen originals, just translations.

Thanks for the correction.

Dude, that is ONE obscure piece of trivia, and I got it from a US Army officer/historian who knew German history backwards and forwards. Sounds like you know your stuff too - but this guy spoke German fluently and lived there. For what it's worth, I've never seen a printed reference in English mention the change either - that includes "Panzergrenadiers in Action" from Squadron Signal (not that they are so great, they are not, but that is something you would expect a book solely on PzG to know!) The shoulder strap info blew me away when I first heard about it too. I guess up until 42-43, they wore pink straps with a "s" cypher. It identified them with the Panzer arm. Then they changed to grass green, which most people assume was the standard from 1939 - not so. But damned if I can find a reference to it anywhere.

I can still be wrong, but this guy's word was pretty much gold as far as I am concerned. I would love to be able to find a more definitive source. Even Brian Davis doesn't seem to mention it anywhere.

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[Guest Big Time Software]

Michael, you are correct:

I can still be wrong, but this guy's word was pretty much gold as far as I am concerned. I would love to be able to find a more definitive source.

The original Motorized Infantry divisions started out from cadres of "Schnelle Truppen" before the war, officially created in 1938. This was an organizational branch of the OKH that oversaw the manning, training, equipping, and supplying the mobile units of the Wehrmacht. There were Schützen (riflemen, presumably not motorized), Kavallerieschützen (probably the start of recon formations), and Motorisierte Infantrie (montorized infantry units). With general mobilization they were used to expand existing formations into Panzer and Motorized Infantry divisions. On July 5th, 1942 the name was changed to Panzer Truppen.

The term "Panzergrenadier" was adopted for former Motorized divisions, but internally only the armored (Halftrack) battalions were given this name. The truck born units were called "Grenadier Battalions".

Around this same time the Waffen SS made all sorts of name changes too, and more a little later on. But that is a whole nother kettle of fish

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Steve, in the spirit of sucking up to BTS, I am not even going to ask you to name your source!

Seriously, thanks for the confirmation.

[Graaf Spee]

Actually you can buy elite Volksturm in QBs. Its only when you create a scenario that you are limited to conscript/green/regular. Its the same for the allied side except that you cant buy conscripts in your scenario, but in a QB you can. Maybe it should be the other way around?

BTS, PLEASE FIX OR DO SOMEFINK!

/Kristian

Shouldnt Volksturm be immune to moral effects from artillery?

- What, you call this artillery? When I was young back in 1918 we had....

[Keith]

I would just like to say that I think that the Volkstrumm squads represented in CM seem to be a little too well equipped. From what I have read many of these units were equipped with old captured bolt action rifles (Italian) with a a dozen rounds of ammo apiece. The CM volkstrumm squad is as well equipped as a regular infantry unit complete with MG42s and assault rifles.

One thing I would like to see in the future is the ability to "arm" individual squads with equipment other than panzerfaust and demo charges. That way I could make some volkstrumm squads equipped with just rifles.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Keith:

I would just like to say that I think that the Volkstrumm squads represented in CM seem to be a little too well equipped. From what I have read many of these units were equipped with old captured bolt action rifles (Italian) with a a dozen rounds of ammo apiece. The CM volkstrumm squad is as well equipped as a regular infantry unit complete with MG42s and assault rifles.

One thing I would like to see in the future is the ability to "arm" individual squads with equipment other than panzerfaust and demo charges. That way I could make some volkstrumm squads equipped with just rifles.

I agree - changing the composition of squads would be a welcome addition, as well as historically accurate - as mentioned in another thread, it was routine for the Brits and Canadians to leave one or two riflemen at B Echelon as LOB - Left Out of Battle. Factor in battle casualties, and quite often squads only went into action with 5 or 6 men rather than 10.

For special missions, squads were sometimes changed around too - when the Calgary Highlanders crossed the Albert Canal in September 1944, the lead squad was equipped entirely with Stens and Brens. Very atypical, I realize, but something worth simulating.

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