Puppchens - do you ever use them?

[Incoming]

Preface: i did do a search and read all that turned up.

Does anyone every use Puppchens on a regular basis? Since their price was doubled to 18 points there hasnt seemed to be much dialogue on them.

I recently purchased them in a couple of PBEM's but havent progressed to the point of using them.

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

Also see my reply/AAR to the "Stupid/gamey defense that works GREAT!" thread. I was not impressed.

I think these things are more like horizontal minefields, denying the enemy certain approach routes, but they have no decent chance to defend against infantry or artillery once they are spotted (HC only, limited ammunition, slow ROF).

They are also not slow like the RCLs, but very slow in CM terms. They has even less blast than the Panzerschreck.

The Panzerschreck is a little cheaper, but is fast, can ride on any team-transporting unit, including armored transport into dangerous zones and it can hide. The Pueppchen needs to be towed and cannot dodge fire by any means.

The Pueppchen has more ammunition, but I doubt it can spend it in the usual case. These things should be very easy to spot, both because of the rocket stream and because the projectile is much below the speed of sound.

Historically I guess they were rather made to inflict casualities on the Western Allies' forces to drive them out of the war politically than to win battles.

Yours "stinking normal turreted tank lover"

Martin

[Guest Mike the bike]

I've bought a few Puppchen in a 3000 pt defence game I've just started - they're placed as light AT guns, and are part of a pretty comprehensive AT defence including mines, roadblocks, 50, 75 and 88mm guns, bunkers and lots of panzerfausts. My force is infantry only.

Of course my idea of comprehensive may be complete bollocks, since it's a big map and what looked like a lot on paper seems awfully thin when deployed, but we'll son see!!

[SenorBeef]

Originally posted by Incoming:

Preface: i did do a search and read all that turned up.

Does anyone every use Puppchens on a regular basis? Since their price was doubled to 18 points there hasnt seemed to be much dialogue on them.

I recently purchased them in a couple of PBEM's but havent progressed to the point of using them.

I find them to be pretty effective, though not as much as they used to be. I use them general in armor screens/ambushes, but I'll also use them in the back field to handle likely places for a tank during a penetration of my MLR. They're about the same cost as a schrek, with, effectively, twice the accuracy to twice the range. So you can treat them as a very powerful AT gun (will slice through churchills) with a range of 300 meters. It has some tactical limitations, but, undiscovered, it can hurt an opponents approach badly. A schreck can, too, but people don't often drive up to the 80m or so they need to be effective.. They will, however, generally get within 250 meters of a well placed puppchen.

[Incoming]

My first use of a Puppchen just occured. First shot, first kill on an M4A3 75. The M10 next to it destroyed it 2 shots later. Not a bad trade, would have liked 1 or 2 more kills though.

[Jarmo]

I think the next time I'm defending against someone who loves to use Heavies like Jumbo's or Super Pershings, I'll blow 400 points on Puppchens! With 20 of them you could build a pretty convincing AT defense...

[Guest ckoharik]

I tried a QB last night using a slight variation of the "Stupid/gamey defense that works GREAT!" force list. The puppchens on one side did very, very well against the armor that was sent. Even more so than the 75mm ATGs that continually missed their shots. I've used them before and while they are extremely vulnerable they can be very effective if placed properly. But then again, anything is effective is used in the right way.

[von Lucke]

I've used them occasionally. Usually as flank defense, in positions where the enemy will be within 300m (or less), if they come that way.

They're good for one or two shots before drawing fire from every enemy unit within LOS, and then dying ignomiously.

[Sirocco]

When positioned properly I can't think of better AT value for money on the German side - but don't expect more than one or two shots from them.

------------------

"He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..."

- Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

Yes, people, noone doubts that you can use them for nice ambushes. But why choose them over the Panzerschreck? For first thoughts on Schreck vs. Püppchen see my above posting.

I just came across the Pueppchen description in Bishops's book. The Pueppchen was made in 1943, as kind of light field gun just with a rocket launcher. It was even loaded like a real gun.

After the first Bazookas were captured in Africa the same year, the Germans realized that everything besides the tube itself was unneeded for this kind of weapon. Once most other gun-like features were gone, it was small enough so that it didn't need a shield anymore and then is was light enough that it didn't have to be a carrier anymore but could be transported by a team.

No doubt this kind of weapon makes sense in the defense, but why the Pueppchen over the Schreck? The only advantage I noticed was that my Infantry could not overrun the Pueppchen as easily as the Schreck, because it has a 4 man team.

[Warmaker]

You get what you pay for in CMBO. The Puppchen's cheap and does well for a short ranged AT weapon. I'm still practicing on a good employment but since they're so cheap I don't mind their loss. Place them to ambush/harass avenues of approach of enemy armor and maybe a squad/half a squad alongside them. Easy example is a road lined with wood/tall woods nearby for your positions. The Panzerfausts can take armor on with their singleshots while the Puppchen can provide a prolonged, cheap, short ranged AT defense. If things get too hairy, back out your infantry and give up the cheap puppchen.

------------------

"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 03-23-2001).]

[SenorBeef]

Originally posted by Martin Cracauer:

Yes, people, noone doubts that you can use them for nice ambushes. But why choose them over the Panzerschreck? For first thoughts on Schreck vs. Püppchen see my above posting.

I just came across the Pueppchen description in Bishops's book. The Pueppchen was made in 1943, as kind of light field gun just with a rocket launcher. It was even loaded like a real gun.

After the first Bazookas were captured in Africa the same year, the Germans realized that everything besides the tube itself was unneeded for this kind of weapon. Once most other gun-like features were gone, it was small enough so that it didn't need a shield anymore and then is was light enough that it didn't have to be a carrier anymore but could be transported by a team.

No doubt this kind of weapon makes sense in the defense, but why the Pueppchen over the Schreck? The only advantage I noticed was that my Infantry could not overrun the Pueppchen as easily as the Schreck, because it has a 4 man team.

Its a much more stable firing platform, and allows firing to twice the range, and much more accuracy at every range.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Martin Cracauer:

No doubt this kind of weapon makes sense in the defense, but why the Pueppchen over the Schreck? The only advantage I noticed was that my Infantry could not overrun the Pueppchen as easily as the Schreck, because it has a 4 man team.

The attacker shouldn't overrun a puppchen at all. It should have fired over the heads of his screening infantry to knock out one of his supporting tanks, and then been quickly pinned and eliminated by return fire. And in point terms that's an excellent result.

The difference between the 'schreck and the puppchen is the screening infantry would have probably uncovered the 'schreck team, or it would have missed the first shot and been pinned and routed.

------------------

"He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..."

- Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

For the record, I did some testing and have to correct my opinion.

The Pueppchen is much more precise at least at 170 meters (test range). Knocks out series of Shermans almost like an AT gun, the Schreck was much worse.

For a small extra price, a 50mm AT gun is much more effective against infantry and light vehicles at the range (and should be much harder to spot). But this one looses when enemy armor is too fat, and a Sherman already is.

My negative opinion about the Pueppchen was based on the opinion that is will not be much more precise around the Schreck's maximum range. That is incorrect.

Further observation: against unarmored vehicles the Schreck is more effective, since blast counts.

I would still buy a Schreck for the reasons in my original posting, but the Pueppchen has a point.

[Warmaker]

The Panzerschrecks do have mobility going for them while you probably need a truck or something to tow around a Puppchen. That and you can hide a 'schreck team inside buildings.

------------------

"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima