Warmaker Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 Keep in mind of course that terrain will play a key role in your planning. If the enemy still has armor what I do depends on the type I face. Tanks like the Sherman 105 and StuH42 make things difficult since infantry-bashing is their specialty. But moving units to it's flanks may give your Panzerschrecks/Bazookas that flank shot to maximize a chance for a kill or to buy time/screen that Pioneer or Engineer unit to close in and demolish the armor. While it's satisfying to see ATG's/Bazookas claim a kill not alot of things in CM are more satisfying than seeing a good Pioneer assault on armor with a huge 'splosion from their charges. Of course open terrain makes things extremely difficult if you have to cross it and that tank is sitting waaaay at the other end of it. And with proper infantry support for it makes it more difficult... ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 I wouldn't surrender, but I must admit that I take on a defeatist attitude after losing my armour. This indicates that I depend on my armour way too much - a fact that is evident by my PBEMS. Its a constant learning experience. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 Hasn't happened yet... knock on wood. I have lost all my armor on a number of occaissions, but I have always knocked his out first by that point. :^) Joe ------------------ "I had no shoes and I cried, then I met a man who had no socks." - Fred Mertz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aka PanzerLeader Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 It is an interesting topic for sure. Faced with infantry only vs. tanks I'll stop attacking and generally withdraw my infantry to a safe place out of reach of the enemy tanks(town, woods, behind a ridgeline...). Either I'm winning already in which case I'll just let the opponent come in to my killzones(near the flags), and defend. Or, if I must gain ground to win, I'll try plotting a move through cover that gets me to close combat, where infantry excels at. Smoke can be helpful, but I wouldn't rely too much on it. Has anybody else noticed how reluctant the German squads are to fire their PanzerFaust? The other day I was playing a scenario where I was defending a town. Enemy tanks with no(!!) infantry support had started entering the suburbs, bypassing a forward position which was dumb enough, at 50m, not to fire their Fausts. They only buttoned the tanks with small arms fire. Then, later, as the Shermans stopped and started pounding some buildings in the town I decided to sneak my forward elements and take the bloody tanks from behind. Easy, I thought. The tanks are buttoned, they won't see me, and at 20m my infantry squad will kill them with Fausts. Action Phase: two infantry squads with their Platoon Leader sneak for about 60 m and stop right behind the tanks. Just at this moment the tanks notice them and start rotating their turrets(a full 180 degree rotation is required). Guess what: the squads were regular SS. What do they do? They don't fire their Fausts and run to the nearest cover, 50m from there! They get shot at, start cowering. 5 mns later, they're off the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 You know, I actually give up when my infantry are killed. or enough of them that I cannot see a way to take the objective over the terrain I am assigned. I am in a game right now -- armor is even since my German heavies are keeping his Shermans away and (mostly) useless while I have a few tank killer teams popping them if they come to close. But the set up left me with 1000 meters of open ground to cover, which is chopping my platoons up. I cannot use my supply of smoke this early in the game since I will need it to cover the really bad gaps, and I need my arty to make up for my infantry losses. My assumption is, as a real commander, I would call off the battle rather than continue a WWI style assault to no end, since his superior cover allowed him to walk right in and dig into the victory location. His tanks likely will fall to mine, but then my tanks cannot run around the woods that dominate his side of the terrain peeling out Infantry. So I would ay the battle depends on infantry rather than tanks in most situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 Interesting strategy Slapdragon. I'm not sure I understand your reasoning behind withholding smoke though.. If I have to cross 1000m of open terrain, I just use the smoke... I'll worry about gaps later. Running across a kilometer of open ground without smoke pretty much insures that the gaps will only be bigger later on anyway. :^) Joe ------------------ "I had no shoes and I cried, then I met a man who had no socks." - Fred Mertz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 Most of the messages indicating tha tplayers will courageously play on assume that after losing all their armor, they are playing infantry vs armor and tht the infantry has some AT capability. This is not usually the case.In a recent 1000-pt meeting engagement pbem on a lightly forested map with small hills, I had a Hetzer, PzIVJ, 234/9 halftrack and a company of infantry and a 120 mm mortar, in addition to som MGs an 81 mm mortars. My opponent had a company of infantry supported by two Daimler ACs, 2 Cromwell VII's and a halftrack (I don't remember which and it doesn't matter, since I knocked it out early).Note that the both my tanks could be killed by any of the four opponent's tanks and ACs. We both approached the flag with a platoon of infantry, but I plastered his infantry with my 120 mm artillery, PZIVJ and 234/9, killing a FO and routing two squads (I found out after the game).The terrain was such that I could not approach his 2 Cromwells on the left or the 2 Daimlers on the right with my AFVs without exposing my flanks, so I could only clobber his infantry until he decided to move his armor. Finally his two halftracks approached my PzIVJ and 234/9 almost frontally and first-shot killed both of them within a few seconds while they returned ineffective fire. During the same minute, as I advanced my Hetzer on the other flank to get a shot, a lucky mortar hit disabled the Hetzer's gun, leaving me without any armor. I immediately surrendered, realizing that there was no way that I could take and hold the objectives. He still had over 2 platoons of infantry to my 3, one of which had taken light losses from artillery. Although I had a slight advantage in infantry, he still had 2 Cromwell VIIs and 2 Daimlers to support his own infantry.Even had he been a whole platoon down,his infantry with the armor support available would have no trouble holding back mine.In addition, my infantry was now badly deployed, since half of it was on the wrong side of the road, being deployed there in order to attack the flags with a crossfire.In order to get to the flags, they would have to cross the road under fire from the opponent's armor.No way in relatively clear terrain without AT weapons and artillery. If anyone thinks that I surrendered too early, set up a battle with the forces remaining on a lightly forested map with small hills and try to convince anyone that you can win this with the Germans. I do agree that if one has a decisive advantage in infantry and that this infantry has AT weapons, one has a chance of holding against enemy armor, if the terrain has sufficient cover and if one is already close enough to the objectives to fight a defensive battle. IN a QB meeting engagement, this is unlikely to happen. Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 Originally posted by Polar: Interesting strategy Slapdragon. I'm not sure I understand your reasoning behind withholding smoke though.. If I have to cross 1000m of open terrain, I just use the smoke... I'll worry about gaps later. Running across a kilometer of open ground without smoke pretty much insures that the gaps will only be bigger later on anyway. :^) Joe Because I cannot get the troops across with the amount of smoke I have, so I limited to rushes and hoping that long range fire is less damaging. When I get closer, I do not want the point blank fire to kill me getting into the final cover, so there I need that smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 No-fight like hell, and then make a good orderly withdrawal if no win is possible, making the enemy sustain casualties in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 "I have not yet begun to fight!" [This message has been edited by StellarRat (edited 01-30-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 My little experience is if the VL does not have proper covers and worse without control to the VL, it would be very hard for the side to get a minimum draw without any panzer. In one pbem qb, the setting was c-a, m/e, farmland terrian with random pick troops, I faced upon at least 2 Cromwells and 1 Dialmer without any wheels on my side, including PaK! The only VL was in a depression wihtout much cover nearby. Any attempts to approach the VL met with firece standoff fire by 2 Cromwells sitting behind walls. I didn't have enough smoke dispensor on my side to hold the flag so we agreed to give this game up without any outcome. Well this was the days of 1.1 beta. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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