Rifle grenades in CM?(for grogs)

[Sig]

In a night scenario, valiant Americans shot and killed some enemy armor with rifle grenades. They shot from the upper story of a large building.

My question: how are WWII (american) rifle grenades fixed to the gun barrel?

I ask because during my army days, I shot quite a lot of AT rifle grenades (a real pain in the ***, BTW ) and these grenades could not be shot downward, because they would slip from the barrel. So, shooting from above on an AFV in the street...forget it.

Oh, BTW, and if you know the way they were fired? I am curious to know. We had to insert a special ammo clip firing a low velocity soft bullet (was wood IIRC) to start the grenade.

Thx

Sig

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

They were fired with a special rifle cartridge. As for the slip of the barrel, I think you are right and they could not shoot downward.

Incidentally, the Germans also used rifle grenades. The panzerfaust was better, but they still had tons of the things when the fausts came out. They made a couple times as many of the things as the number of fausts, though many were used earlier in the war. And they were still being made at the end of the war.

The penetration of the German AT rifle grenade was adequate against HTs and against typical Shermans from side or rear, but not from the front.

I wonder if a number of "faust" attacks reported by U.S. tankers, weren't rifle grenades instead.

[Ts9]

American rifle grenades were fired using a blank round. The M-7 launcher is a simple spigot tube about 4 1/2 inches in length with a short bracket and clip to attach it to the rifle. The tube fits over the end of the barrel (in this case my Garand)a short pin fits into the recess in the gas plug and the clip locks over the bayonet lug to keep it in place. It is possible to fire the rifle grenade at a downwards angle, there is a spring which wraps around the spigot tube near the top which creates enough tension

to keep the grenade from simply slipping off. In fact, with the grenade in place and my Garand pointed directly at the floor I was unable to shake the grenade loose despite my best efforts. The spigot tube is marked with a series of graduated lines numbered 2-6 (1 would be fully seated). These positions combined with the angle the rifle is fired at are used to set the range. Position 6 (the top end of the spigot) combined with 45 degrees elevation would give an approx range of 60 yards, postion 1 (fully seated with a 30 degree angle would give approx 165 yards. These are figures for the adapter which is used to fire a standard "pineapple" grenade from the laucher. An impact fused grenade fired from position 1 at 45 degrees gives a range of 200 yards. This is not possible with the pineapple type grenade because the time of flight is greater than the fuze delay on the grenade. The launcher can be left in place as it does not effect the normal functioning of the weapon, just make sure you switch to a blank round prior to firing a grenade, otherwise your weapon will blow up in your face. At re-enactments I've even seen a British cup style launcher fired at a 45 degree down angle from a 2nd floor window so I know it's possible with that style launcher also.

[Dogface]

color me green with envy!!!

i all most did the whole civilian markmanship program (which = lots o money) to get one ..

but then i settled for a S.M.L.E or Enfield No.1 Mk.3 made by Brimingham Small Arms in 1918 still shoots straight too.

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Berlin calling, Berlin calling,

when Berlin calls it pays to listen.....

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http://ponyshow.com some screenshots

[Slapdragon]

This is a combat photograph of a soldier firing a rifle grenade over a hedgerow near Villers-Bocage. The grenade is a fragmentation grenade on a carrier but the M9A1 antitank grenade was a commonly issued round and actually quite effective since it attacked the top of the tank. Rifle grenades were not as common as the later 40mm would be, but every squad was suppose to have a launcher around, and some grenadiers got so good that they were used almost like snipers, dropping grenades down on enemy positions when 60mm was not around. The M1 rifle and M1 carbine both had grenade launchers. The original grenade launder for the M1 Rifle was horrible, but by DDay it had been replaced by a much better unit. Because of the unusual en bloc clip of the M1, many grenadiers carved wooden plugs and attached them to a special clip to allow them to quickly get another blank into the weapon in combat -- today reenactors do the same thing to make their M1s load blanks.

[Forever Babra]

You sure about the placement of that pic, slappy?

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...and Kingmaker taught me that if you go to any town in Britain, sooner or later the plague will get you. - Offwhite

[Ts9]

Actually the blanks available on the market today feed fine in the Garand. The only problem you run into is being a gas-operated weapon unless you throttle down the opening in the barrel the action won't cycle semi-automatically. There are ways of doing this either with a barrel end blank adapter which threads on in place of the gas cylinder lock, or if you want to permanently blank adapt the weapon you can tap the barrel and insert a set screw that has been drilled out to the proper diameter. The blanks I use come from a company in Arizona called Joe Swanson's Motion Picture Blanks Inc.

(shameless plug here). I understand he produced 400,000 blank rounds used in SPR.

I've been using his blanks for two years without a hitch and they even feed correctly in my BAR which is not an easy weapon to use with blanks.

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Forever Babra:

You sure about the placement of that pic, slappy?

It is on the docut that the photograph came in when I scanned it. My theory is that this is an airborne gentleman or he is actually French and not US.

Let me add that it would not be the first photograph I have scanned from a print file that had some errors in it, intentional or not. One photograph, which I know is a picture of US soldiers gunning down Dachau prison guards, says, "German guards laying down as US soldiers watch" on the docket description, which is repeated when I found the same image in a US government image guide.

So, until I can figure out what his patch is from my scan (I wish I had the money to make full size black and whites of these pictures on a copy stand rather than make a digital scan) I have to assume the docket is correct even if it seems a little crazy that a US infantryman would be in the British zone. Also, the term "near" could mean anything, cause if you think about the scale, 12 kilometers is near and a US soldier could be there.

It is however, a combat photograph from the bocage, all other doubt aside.

[Blackhorse]

I think the picture is backwards. If you reverse it, it might make it easier to ID the bubbas.

Unless a bunch of lefties were put into the "Left Handed" division and issued lefty Garands.

[Sig]

Thanks for the replies.

Very informative.

I have one more thing to ask: what was the strength of the recoil?

My father shot rifle grenades with a bolt operated rifle and he told me they had to be very careful because the risk was a broken finger. Standard procedure was to pull the trigger with only the tip of the finger. Otherwise, with the recoil the (don't know the english word) metallic element protecting the trigger would brake the finger. He told me some soldiers used a short piece of wood to pull safely the trigger...talk about fire accuracy.

Most of the soldiers (me included at the time) usually hated the AT rifle grenades because of the recoil (could really sprain a wrist, or the gun barrel could hit your face if you cared to aim this *** thing).

Thx for comment.

Sig

[Sig]

Yeeeeehaaa! Double post!

Sig

[This message has been edited by Sig (edited 02-03-2001).]

[Gremlin]

You can find details and pics right from the source here: http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/DL/chron.htm#AWorldWarII19391945

Search the Standard Ordnance Items Catalog Vol. 3

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