Artillery Availability

[Guest Pillar]

I was having a conversation the other night with a collegue about artillery assets available to a brigade commander on the western front.

Here are some results of research:

A US Army BDE on the spearhead of an attack (assault in CM terms) might have the following at it's disposal:

AT LEAST:

1 battery of 8 inch

4 batteries of 155 mm (VT later)

14 batteries of 105mm

14 batteries of 81mm

A battalion at the spearhead of this attack could receive support from ALL of these. Other battalions would have access to significant portions.

Then we turn to German TOE.

A standard German Motorized Rifle Regiment could have:

14 81mm batteries

6 120mm batteries

6 105mm batteries

7-8 150mm batteries (some SP)

Again, a battalion at the spearhead of an offensive attack could count on all of these assets, and secondary battalions would undoubtably have access to a portion of these resources.

I'll leave it at that and see where the grogs take this. Could mean interesting implications in scenario design.

As a counter point to scenario design, one might incorporate the fact that CM does not model defensive aspects such as covered trenches and so forth.

No flames please, or I'll disappear as quick as I came.

Sources:

US Army Handbook 1939-45

Handbook on German Military Forces

[Guest Michael emrys]

It has been in the back of my mind all along that artillery has been somewhat under-represented in CM (and probably in similar wargames as well). I think this might have been partly done to prevent the game from simply degenerating into an artillery duel.

Also, you might want to keep in mind that even when that much arty was available, it may have been doing its thing outside the area depicted by the CM mapboard, doing CBF, harassment and interdiction, etc.

But I think there is more to it than just that. First of all, not every action depicted in CM is the spearhead for a major offensive. A lot of the fighting went on while the greatest part of the artillery was occupied elsewhere or under conditions where they were compelled to conserve ammunition. I think some of the quantities you cite were definitely non-standard.

So far I have only played the Americans. When I have a battalion-sized taskforce, I usually give them a battery of 81mm mortars, a battery or two of 105mm howitzers, and either a battery of 4.2" inch mortars or 155mm howitzers. This is actually a fairly generous allotment for that sized force on an active front, according to the accounts I have read.

Still, it would be fun (and in no way impossible to do) to set up a scenario where you have available artillery somewhat on the scale you describe. Just to see what it looks like.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 02-03-2001).]

[I/O Error]

Historically:

90% of all in-combat casualties are made by artillery.

(It sucks being a ground pounder. )

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[Guest Pillar]

Agreed Michael. Certainly all of division artillery wouldn't be helping unless you were a very important piece of the overall tactical scene.

Still, it sheds light on what was *available* given the right priority. (I.E. it's realistic to have given the right scenario)

You are also right that artillery was used in other uses other than just the front. It could be used to try and prevent division reserves from moving up etc.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Those forces might be everything within range of a brigade's sector (and where did "brigade" come from? There weren't any, unless the fellow meant combat-command in an armored division. Everybody else used regiments). But that hardly means they will all fire in support of a battalion on "point".

Every battalion had a battery of 81mm, but they did not support units outside the battalion. "Why, they had radios, so..." Because #1 their own battalion needed support and #2 the limit on shells fired for the entire war is *not* tubes, it is *shells*. Armies provide more tubes than they can continually put shells through, precisely in order for people to have their own tubes assigned to them.

Why is it so hard to grok that the number of tubes in range is simply not the issue, at all?

Seconds, the 4.2" mortars are the "chemical" mortars. They are a very low priority for HE ammunition. They were indeed used for that sometimes, and they also regularly fired smoke missions for a regiment or a division.

When a division logistics officer is planning an offensive and its supporting fires, his actual constraints are thruput of his transport chain and shells he can draw from some depot or port or landing site somewhere. Not tubes. He is not going to say "oh, and gee make sure the 4.2" mortars can all join in, because we wouldn't want them to feel left out", if all it means is space used for mortars shells and 105mm artillery shells and the same total delivery as he'd get using his available transport space for just 105mm.

Every regiment had its own 105mm battalion attached. That is 3 batteries of 105mm in CM terms. That is the operational unit for supporting fires. The other two regiments in the division have more. The division has the one battalion / 3 batteries of 155mm, which incidentally have longer range and are the best weapon the force has for counterbattery fire, or shelling a railyard or bridge area somewhere in the enemy rear.

An attacking battalion could count on the fire of its battalion mortars, until they ran out of ammo. It could count on the fire of batteries from the regimental artillery battalion, until they ran out of ammo, or another battalion called for their fire, or they had to displace, or they had another artillery target scheduled for bombardment besides "on call" during a battle, etc.

If the fight was a determined assault on a dug in defender, then what you could expect is a prepartory bombardment up to 2 hours long, by the guns of the regiment or the division.

Guns from other divisions that are "in range", they would not have a snowballs chance of getting. The only time units got those is when one forward unit was defending in the middle of an enemy attack, or in a location from which it could see for 10 miles in several directions. Then its calls were the most target-rich shots in the corps or the army. That did happen, but the result was sporadic fire. But how many fire mission did a battalion call in, in such spots?

The highest I've ever heard of in the unit histories is about 40 a day. Not 40 batteries times 3-4 fire missions each in 30 minutes. 40 fire missions, aka about 10-13 CM modules, in an entire day. For a unit surrounded by Germans with clear views for miles in every direction, calling in fire from 3 different divisions, plus corp level stuff.

The most any battalion level CM fight merits is 3x105mm plus 1x81mm, meaning the battalion mortars and the artillery battalion attached to the regimental combat team or armored combat command your battalion is part of. If you want to simulate very high ammo for a major attack, you could take 2 FOs for the mortars but only use one of them at a time, to increase the available ammo load.

For the Brits it is the same story, just 25 lbers instead of 105s and 3" mortars instead of 81mm. For the Germans, the 81mm are teh same, but the additional stuff could be more grab-bag. 1x75mm for infantry formations, for instance (the regimental light howitzers). 2-3x150mm rockets in *one* barrage. 1-2x120mm mortars. Or 1-2x105mm artillery. But those are *or*, not *and*, once you get past the 75mm.

[Gremlin]

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015813.html

[Guest Pillar]

Jason,

What does your research say on the 7-8 batteries of 150mm howitzers the German division had?

Each battery is four guns (one spotter in CM).

- Pillar

[Michael Dorosh]

I have read of instances in Canadian brigades (three battalions - what the Yanks and Germans call a Regiment) where the 3-in mortar assets (6 tubes per battalion) were pooled.

Most brigades went into action with two battalions up, one in reserve. I think the pooling of mortar assets was rare, however. That being the case, a battalion really only had

0ne platoon of 3 inch mortars

One battery of 25 pounders (a division had 3 field regiments, usually parcelled out one per brigade, then each battalion could call on one battery).

In action, the 25 pounders could all be called on one target - Canadian FOOs could call for a Mike Target (the entire field regiment would then concentrate on the selected target), Uncle Target (the entire Divisional artillery would fire) or Victor Target (all Corps artillery as well, such as 4.5 or 5.5 howitzers, etc.)

But since not all battalions were in the line at the same time, in normal situations, this could get confusing and it is hard to pinpoint with accuracy just which unit a particular artillery asset "belonged" to. In theory, any FOO could call down the fire of the entire Corps - but he had to have a decent target.

I would like to see a discussion on what would constitute a Mike, Uncle or Victor target. Would a horse drawn cart be appropriate for a Victor target? No. But would a battalion of infantry in the open? Or would this merely be a divisional level shoot?

Add to the mix the 4.2 inch mortars of the divisional machine gun battalions, and the questions become more interesting.

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[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-03-2001).]

[Guest wwb_99]

One thing to remeber is all of the non-organic artillery running around by late world war II. While the Soviets took this to an extreme, creating entire artillery divisions, but the western Allies and the Germans had quite a bit of it. The Americans had so much that most infantry divisons acquired a semi-organic battalion of 155mm guns. On the Axis side, there were quite a few indepenent niebelwerfer battalions, in fact, IIRC all rocket arty was a corps level asset.

It also must be said that much of this corps level arty was big bore, long range guns used for counterbattery or interdiction fire (8 inch, 170mm, etc.). Still, for an assault, availiable artillery should not be limited to organic assets. This would be especially true for the Americans, as their quite flexible fire control system allowed any gun within range to be called in.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

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[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

A German division had 2 150mm *infantry guns* in each regiment, making 6 guns all told.

Their were supposed to be 3 batteries of 150mm, one for each artillery battalion (along with 2 batteries of 105mm each). The 150mm infantry guns were being mounted on SiG assault guns as the war progressed, making them rarer in gun form. (The same happened with the regimental 75mm light howitzers, BTW - they went onto half-tracks and such).

You would not expect to find the heavier guns at TOE later in the war, except in SS formations or Panzer divisions during a push like the Bulge. Ammo for the 105mms was more plentiful than for the 150mm. Late in the war, the 150mm rockets become much more common, and the 150mm howitzers less so.

The late war infantry division pattern was only 6 battalions of infantry, down from 9 battalions earlier in the war. The earlier (main - division-level arty I mean) artillery establishment was 3 battalions, each 2x4x105mm and 1x4x150mm, total 9 batteries supporting 9 battalions. With the 150mm guns not there, they still had 6 batteries, now supporting 6 battalions, and they had a much simpler (and lower) supply picture (tonnage needed per day in combat, etc).

The other fellow's 7-8 figure would seem to be a result of treating the regimental infantry howitzers as 1 1/2 "batteries", when in fact they were used in sections of 2, often on assault guns, and not as indirect batteries at all (they had quite low range from low muzzle velocity, which is why they were designated "infantry guns" rather than artillery). His remaining 6, I can see 3 of them for expecting full TOE in the artillery battalions. The only other 150mm weapons are the rockets, which are not the same item at all. Perhaps he is counting a corps level artillery regiment's guns for the other 3 and expecting they can all fire in support (for a "lead" battalion, that is fantasy).

[Guest Pillar]

Jason,

You are correct re: the 150mm inf. guns in the estimate.

If you have the Handbook on German Military Forces, put out by the US. War Department check page 101 for a list of divisional artillery assets.

I'll reproduce it here, to confirm some of what you say.

18 81mm mortars per inf regiment (organic)

12 120mm mortars per inf regiment (organic)

6 150mm Inf. Hows (SP) per inf regiment (organic)

The Armd Arty Regiement has:

12 105mm Gun/Hows (Mtr-Dr)

12 105mm Gun/Hows (SP)

12 150mm Hows (mtr-dr)

6 150mm Hows (SP)

Divisional Totals are

52 81mm Morts

24 120mm

12 150mm inf hows (sp)

12 105mm gun/hows (mtr-dr)

12 105mm gun/how (SP)

12 150mm Hows (Mtr-dr)

6 150mm Hows (SP)

Note the rockets are not even listed here for an Army Motrized Division.

What does this tell us?

Thanks.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

If you want to see what the real tactical employment of higher-level artillery fires was like, then here is the way you should do it.

Designate a target for a battalion shoot of 3x105mm. Put one 105mm on the target and the other two 50-100 yards from the point of aim of the first, side to side spread, and all of them set on "wide", not narrow.

Then do not move the targeting, do not walk shells, do not turn the barrage off. Continue the fire until at least 25 rounds have run off the lowest "expended" count of the three FOs. In the first minute they are all over that, cut off the fire. End of battalion shoot. The three FOs will be good for 2-3 fire missions as above, typically.

For 155mm (or 150mm, British 4.5 or 5.5 inch), do the same as the above, but 100 yards apart (+/- a smidgen). Obviously, they fire fewer shells before running out (or switching to another target). Fire the entire ammo load the FOs come with, no pausing or walking.

The target should be at least 400 yards, preferably more like 500 yards, from a battalion-level shoot.

Shoots by artillery formations above the level of battalion do not happen, except in mass preparatory bombardments that last hours or days and preceed CM-level tactical combat by a long period. Even then, in every army but the Russian, the battalion would be the level of shoot used, and the bombardment would consist in a number of targets in sequence for each battalion, planned out to cover some whole set of targets in the enemy areas by the end of the "prep fire".

(The Russians used the physical placement of their guns on the ground as a means of aiming the shells over a wide area for these affairs. Every gun would fire on the same elevation and deflection - essentially, not aiming at all - so that the shells would supposedly fall in the same pattern as the placement of their guns. This is a lot simpler than planning a target for every battalion. It is also much less effective for the same expenditure of ammunition. That is why the Russians used higher level artillery formations, up to "artillery armies").

You would not see the FOs of an attacking battalion walking individual batteries over this target and that one with entire artillery battalions all the way up to everything in his corps. Calling a corps level shoot, would mean assigning a battalion level shoot target to each of a dozen artillery battalions, each one as a battalion (above), and usually in sequence but not in parallel. A corps level shoot might last 1-2 hours, with only one battalion's shells actually landing at a time, spaced apart 5-10 minutes.

The reason the 105mms (and 25lber) and the 81mm mortars are shown with so much more ammo than the other types in CM, is that they are organic, not outside fires. Outside fires are going to fire one 6-rounds-per-gun mission and have done with it. (For Germans, 120mm mortars and 75mm infantry howitzer are in between).

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

On the SP and towed, I think there is confusion about those figures. SP is an alternative to towed at the same level of the organization chart, not in addition to it. Only the Panzer divisions usually had the SP versions of the arty, and they often did not have a complete SP establishment. But they certainly did not have *both* the towed establishment listed, *and* the SP establishment listed, in every 6-battalion infantry division.

The rockets are not listed because, as I mentioned, they substituted for the mission 150mm guns in the infantry divisions. (SP versions - Maultiers - were used in the armored divisions). They were also used in independent brigades, typically kept together for attacks (prep fires before the battle) or parcelled out to infantry divisions as battalions (2-3 FOs in CM terms) on defense.

[Vanir]

I admit my knowledge of artillery in WW2 is rather lacking. I have a few questions.

Why does the British 5.5 inch (140mm) have a higher blast rating than the American 155mm (208 vs. 198)?

Why is there such a large difference in the blast ratings of the 8 inch gun and the 8 inch howitzer (456 vs. 388)?

Why is there almost no difference in the blast rating of the German 210mm rockets and 300mm rockets?

Both the Germans and Americans apparently had 240mm guns but I've heard little about them. I assume these monsters were corp assets. How were they used and how many of them were there?

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 02-03-2001).]

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

Every regiment had its own 105mm battalion attached.

That depends. If a regiment was acting independently as a regimental combat team, it would probably have an attached 105mm howitzer battalion. If it were operating as part of a division, it might have a dedicated battalion of the divisional arty, or the division might centralize the control of all its arty assets and assign them at need.

A regiment would have its own cannon company, which at this period of the war would consist of six 105mm howitzers. I am inclined to think that these were used en masse, but they might have been parceled out to individual battalions or even companies. If used en masse, they would probably have about the same firepower in CM as a normal battery of four howitzers due to a more stringent ammo supply. This is one facet of ops I'd like to know more about.

The other two regiments in the division have more. The division has the one battalion / 3 batteries of 155mm

Myers says that the infantry division also has six SP 105s. Whether this was just the ideal or standard in practice, I don't know. Might have been true of some divisions and not of others.

...which [the 155s] incidentally have longer range and are the best weapon the force has for counterbattery fire, or shelling a railyard or bridge area somewhere in the enemy rear.

Hmm. I'm open to persuasion on this but highly sceptical. WW2 Fact Files by Chamberlain and Gander give the max range of the 155 as only 3km more than the 105 (14km vs. 11km). I always assumed that they were firing in direct support of the line and used most of their extra range to get a bit further back. In any event, I'd bet that most of the arty used for CBF and harassment and interdiction was corps level stuff, 155 guns with a range with a range in excess of 18km and 8" howitzers with a range well in excess of 16km and 8" guns with a range of about 32km (although these latter were very rare).

Michael

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Pillar:

What does your research say on the 7-8 batteries of 150mm howitzers the German division had?

Could you tell us how you came by that figure, Pillar? That would amount to 28-32 150mm howitzers. All my sources give a standard German mobile field division (there were many other types; let's not go there ) 36 105s and 12 150s.

Michael

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

One thing to remeber is all of the non-organic artillery running around by late world war II. While the Soviets took this to an extreme, creating entire artillery divisions, but the western Allies and the Germans had quite a bit of it.

This is true. In the American army roughly half the artillery was non-divisional. For the Germans and British the proportion may have been a little less and for the Soviets a little more.

The Americans had so much that most infantry divisons acquired a semi-organic battalion of 155mm guns.

They had a fully organic battalion of 155m howitzers. Could that be what you are thinking of?

It also must be said that much of this corps level arty was big bore, long range guns used for counterbattery or interdiction fire (8 inch, 170mm, etc.).

Mostly true. In the American army, a lot of the corps assets were 105mm battalions. I think most of the other armies observed a similar practice of having independent battalions of light/medium arty that could be used to add weight to an attack or defense.

Michael

[Guest Pillar]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Could you tell us how you came by that figure, Pillar? That would amount to 28-32 150mm howitzers. All my sources give a standard German mobile field division (there were many other types; let's not go there ) 36 105s and 12 150s.

Michael

Sure, I just added up the totals for 150mm arty for a division as found on page 101 of the German Army Handbook.

I wasn't discriminating between types of howitzers.

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

The late war infantry division pattern was only 6 battalions of infantry, down from 9 battalions earlier in the war. The earlier (main - division-level arty I mean) artillery establishment was 3 battalions, each 2x4x105mm and 1x4x150mm, total 9 batteries supporting 9 battalions. With the 150mm guns not there, they still had 6 batteries, now supporting 6 battalions...

This may be partly in error. My sources support your figure of 6 infantry battalions in the division, but state that during the 1943 reorganisation, the amount of artillery in the division was actually increased from two battalions of 105s and one of 150s to three battalions of 105s and one of 150s. However, given the higgledy-piggledy nature of German TO&Es at this point, you could probably find an example of almost any structure you could dream up.

Michael

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Vanir:

Why does the British 4.5 inch (140mm) have a higher blast rating than the American 155mm (208 vs. 198)?

That is odd. Chamberlain and Gander give the shell weights of the two pieces as 55 and 95 lbs. respectively. And as the 4.5 has a higher MV I would expect a higher percentage of its weight to be steel rather than explosive.

Why is there such a large difference in the blast ratings of the 8 inch gun and the 8 inch howitzer (456 vs. 388)?

Well, the gun has a heavier shell. But again, due to its higher MV I would expect a lot of the extra weight to go into reinforcing the strength of the shell.

Michael

[Vanir]

I muddied up my original post by inadvertently labeling the British 140mm as 4.5 inch when it is 5.5 inch. Sorry about the confusion. I've edited the post. The question still stands though.

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[Kurtz]

The British 76 mm (3") mortar has higher blast (26) than the American 81 mm (blast 18) because they used cast iron for the projectiles or somefink. Could this be the reason for higher blast of the 5.5" ?

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SS-Weihnachtsgrenadiere

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

"Myers says that the infantry division also has six SP 105s"

6 StuG 105s I'd buy.

On U.S. 155mm howitzers vs. guns, you are probably right. I was indeed thinking of the longer ranged guns for CB and such, not making the distinction among the U.S. 155mms.

On the U.S. cannon companies, I think they were usually used together as one extra battery. Occasional exceptions, but that would be the rule I think. One certainly does not hear in the unit histories, about such guns being integrated into an infantry defense as direct fire assets, nearly as often as one hears the same for the German infantry guns, light FLAK, etc.

All fun stuff...

[JoePrivate]

I just started reading "Steel Inferno" by Michael Reynolds, fine book BTW, in the organization chapter he lists the following artillery equipment for the 1st SS Pz(LAH) and 12th SS Pz(HJ) at the start of their engagement in Normandy.

LAH(Jul1)

23 x 105mm

17 x 150mm

4 x 100mm

18 x 150mm Nebelwerfers

HJ(Jun1)

21 x 105mm

10 x 150mm

24 x 150mm Nebelwerfers

In addition each PzGr Regiment had 6 x 150mm IGs, so 12 per division. For mortars he says each division had about 60 medium and heavy tubes. Reference: LAH Gliederung dated 1 Jul 44, HJ Gliederung dated 1 Jun 44.

A pretty impressive array on paper, though these were 'elite' formations, but as others have said the real limitation is the ammo for the pieces.

By comparison a British or Canadian Infantry Division would have 72 25pndrs. There is an interesting chapter and appendix on shell consumption in "Guns of Normandy".

Rounds fired per gun per day by 4thField(24 guns)

July 19 - 518

July 20 - 505

July 21 - 384

July 22 - 230

July 23 - 30

July 24 - 80

July 25 - 390

Total rounds per gun for the period 2137, average 305. All targets in that period were Mike or higher. Incidently the War Office had projected 62 rounds per gun as sufficient to meet the demands of the Normandy operation. The author also relates how captured Germans wanted to see the new 'wonder-weapon', the automatic loading artillery guns, having never experienced such intense barrages before.

[Guest wwb_99]

Michael,

I am aware that there was an organic 155mm bn in every US infantry division. What I am referring to is the common practice of a nearly permenent attachment of an additional battalion of 155s. In addition, most infantry divisions would get a battalion of tanks or tank destroyers, and sometimes both. Meaning a US infantry division is a force to be reckoned with.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.